Building a nut, have a few questions

ljzimmer said:

I'm going to build a nut this week out of wenge and I have a couple of questions:

1. Does the top of the nut need to have a radius to match the fingerboard?

2. Do the slots that the strings rest in tend to have a "standard" size or do you cut the width to match your preferred strings?

3. Does the slot that the nut resides in simply keep the nut from moving?

Thanks everyone!

Loren

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1. Yes. Fret whichever string in front of the second fret - there should be only a few thousandths between the top of the first fret and the bottom of the string - this is how deep you want to cut your nut slot. Also, only the bottom half of the string is supposed to be in the nut so trim the top accordingly.

2. Match the diameter of your chosen strings.

3. On a Fender neck I'm guessing? Nuts should be glued in place.

1. No -- the top of the nut doesn't really matter. The bottoms of the slots SHOULD end up matching the radius of the neck. Stewmac has a good guide, and there are others out there -- but when you get the slots to the right depth, they should match the radius. And like DSB said, usually the top is brought down so that only about half of the strings are in the slots. But it's more important that the string fits the slot properly (your question #2). And don't forget the angle of the slots, which is pretty crucial -- moreso than the other things, possibly.

3. Properly fitted, the nut should be very snug and flush on all sides (especially the bottom) of the slot. And the slot is precisely located for the scale length. Not sure if those have any relevance to your question, but the slot is "doing" more things than just keeping the nut in place. And I like to glue mine in too, but on a couple of guitars I haven't because they fit snugly enough that, combined with string pressure, there was no need.

Good luck!!

ltt

ljzimmer said:

I'm going to build a nut this week out of wenge and I have a couple of questions:

1. Does the top of the nut need to have a radius to match the fingerboard?

2. Do the slots that the strings rest in tend to have a "standard" size or do you cut the width to match your preferred strings?

3. Does the slot that the nut resides in simply keep the nut from moving?

Thanks everyone!

Loren

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I misread your first question - I thought you were asking if it mattered if the bottom of the string slots need to be the same radius. The top of the nut does not need to match the radius, but if you follow my advice of the top half of the string being exposed, the top of the nut will closely follow that radius.

+1 on lethargy's recommendation that the slots of the nut be properly angled...you want the slot to follow the same angle as the string takes when it passes through the nut and to the tuners. You also want to make sure that the strings contact the nut slots nut right at the fretboard-facing side of the nut, not farther back towards the tuners.

As far as I know, the only purpose of the glue is to keep the nut from falling off when the strings are taken off the instrument. Use only a small amount of glue, you don't want the nut to take a lot of wood with it when it needs to be removed. I use two tiny drops of white Elmer's glue to hold the nuts in place on my instruments.

One caveat on the "top of the nut" issue. The angle of the string from the nut to the tuner may be relevant. If the angle is relatively high (such as the A string on a Rick), that string may tend to pop out of the nut (to the side) if the top of the nut is shaved too low. I have seen that. OTOH, if there's a straight string pull, not a problem & you can cut the top of the nut as suggested above.

XylemBassGuitar said:

+1 on lethargy's recommendation that the slots of the nut be properly angled...

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I was talking about the angle in the Z-axis direction as you are looking at the bass' headstock from the front...that is, the angle of the string as it moves up and down in relation to the plane of the fretboard.

Good call daveman50, I didn't even think to mention something about the angle of the strings in the X-axis direction (side to side angles of the strings as you are looking at the headstock from the front ).

ljzimmer said:

I think that I read somewhere that wilser uses a single drop of ca to "tack" the nut in place.

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I do this as well when working on the slots - at some point you will want to capo on the 3rd fret and see how much clearance you have between the bottom of each string and the first fret (shoot for ~0.002 to 0.005 measured with a feeler gauge, the fat strings need a little more room than the skinny strings). At some point you'll want to pop it off to finish rounding-shaping-buffing the nut, then replace it (I use 3 or 4 drops for the final glue-down).

Just a couple of points--I use CA to tack nuts in place because wood glue won't hold a nut with Teflon in it, like Black Tusq. And in non-Fender-style necks, where the nut is not in a slot, I find it is necessary to use glue because without it tuning the strings will drag the nut towards the tuner, and ordinary handling will cause the nut to shift side to side.

Ed

I use superglue to glue on my nuts and use enough that there is profuse squeeze-out that needs to be cleaned up. They are mounted securely and can still be removed easily (though there is a small amount of cleanup with a chisel required).

I've never understood the school of only using a little glue - I guess if its a Fender style nut where its in a groove this would be best - but I don't build guitars this way so maybe my advice is a little off subject.

do a quick search of the forums here -- I remember a couple of discussions in the past about nut materials specifically -- AFAIK it all comes down to hardness (appropriate materials) and workability (ease to shape it).

Additional advice for wenge: watch out for splinters.

DSB1 said:

I've never understood the school of only using a little glue - I guess if its a Fender style nut where its in a groove this would be best - but I don't build guitars this way so maybe my advice is a little off subject.

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I think the reason to only use a little glue is that every time you remove the nut, you take a little wood out with it. It's really not desirable to remove wood from the end of the fingerboard, because the position of the nut affects the intonation.

And all that squeeze-out is going to go somewhere, probably someplace you don't want it like onto the fretboard or the finish, so you're going to have to clean it up. Why do you want to do that?

And scraping/filing CA glue is work, and why would you make more work for yourself or the next guy who works on the instrument?

If a couple of drops will hold the nut in place, there's no reason to use more--you're just making unnecessary work.

Ed

ByF said:

I think the reason to only use a little glue is that every time you remove the nut, you take a little wood out with it. It's really not desirable to remove wood from the end of the fingerboard, because the position of the nut affects the intonation.

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I assure you no wood is removed from the end of the fingerboard when the nut is removed. This can be repeated ad nauseum with no negative effects on intonation. This is because the superglue is mostly absorbed into the end grain and - if you use enough to coat the entire surface - is still not enough to remove endgrain fibers. Basically, it makes a poor joint no matter what. You would wear out the fingerboard from refrets before you took more than a few thousandths off the end of the fingerboard.

ByF said:

place you don't want it like onto the fretboard or the finish, so you're going to have to clean it up. Why do you want to do that?

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How is this different from any other gluing procedure? Squeeze out is inevitable and it takes seconds to clean up.

ByF said:

And scraping/filing CA glue is work, and why would you make more work for yourself or the next guy who works on the instrument?

If a couple of drops will hold the nut in place, there's no reason to use more--you're just making unnecessary work.
Ed

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So you would advise making a joint that is not sound in order to make someones elses job easier later on? Chances are I will be the one doing the refret on my instruments. I know I am comparing apples to oranges here but that is akin to stating that one should not bind a fingerboard because it will make someone elses job harder later on.

I appreciate your consideration for others but I don't see any merit in worrying about making someone elses job (in my case, myself later on) easier when designing instruments.

DSB1 said:

So you would advise making a joint that is not sound in order to make someones elses job easier later on?

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I didn't read his comment that way. I took his point to be that there is no benefit to be gained from extra glue that justifies the extra work.

I also disagree that the amount of glue makes the joint sound. The nut should mate "perfectly" on 2 (gibson style) or 3 (fender style) sides, and then you have strings creating a lot of downward pressure. I haven't seen anything suggesting that adding a layer of glue in there would increase sonic transference, and if the nut is make with some precision, it's not going to rattle. So a little bit to counter any lateral force from bends, maybe? And then so it doesn't drop off or slid when you're changing strings.

I've had a couple of nuts break when I was trying to get them out, because of the glue holding them in place, and that's why I use the bare minimum I think is necessary (usually two drops near the ends). That probably wouldn't be an issue with better materials (I have a lot of cheap instruments hahaha), but I can't say first hand.

But I also don't think there's anything wrong with a firmly glued nut -- I just agree with ByF that, I think it's creating extra work (or the possibility of extra work), without creating some other benefit.

DSB1 said:

I appreciate your consideration for others but I don't see any merit in worrying about making someone elses job (in my case, myself later on) easier when designing instruments.

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And with all due respect, ease of maintenance IS a factor in the quality of craftsmanship and design.

ltt

lethargytartare said:

I also disagree that the amount of glue makes the joint sound. The nut should mate "perfectly" on 2 (gibson style) or 3 (fender style) sides, and then you have strings creating a lot of downward pressure. I haven't seen anything suggesting that adding a layer of glue in there would increase sonic transference, and if the nut is make with some precision, it's not going to rattle. So a little bit to counter any lateral force from bends, maybe? And then so it doesn't drop off or slid when you're changing strings.

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I understand where you are coming from, but for my money, and the way that I make instruments, it makes sense for the nut to be glued on firmly. Also, I take care fitting my nuts so that they rest with no voids - excess glue is clearly not an acceptable alternative to a tight joint.

lethargytartare said:

I've had a couple of nuts break when I was trying to get them out, because of the glue holding them in place, and that's why I use the bare minimum I think is necessary (usually two drops near the ends). That probably wouldn't be an issue with better materials (I have a lot of cheap instruments hahaha), but I can't say first hand.

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This is typical and why nuts are replaceable, like strings. Just the same, I would not use my method in a Fender nut slot. It does not call for it.
However, as I stated in my previous post I have never had a problem removing them despite how firmly they are glued on. This is part of the reason I use superglue, and not wood glue for this joint. All it takes is a tiny tap with a mallet and piece of wood and it comes off.

So far I have not discovered a way to magically make the surface the nut sits on completely clean and not in need of the moments-long procedure it takes to fit the new nut on. This is a fact of life.

lethargytartare said:

And with all due respect, ease of maintenance IS a factor in the quality of craftsmanship and design.ltt

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Agreed, but did you read my last post? My customers come to me for setups, maintenance etc so I claim ownership over theses things ultimately.

Let's stop arguing over nuts and go make some sawdust instead