1FPF: shift or not?

[JamesInn]

Hi, another beginner question regarding technique.
I watched Flea bass lesson and also Real bass lessons and focus on how they play 1FPF. I found Jim doesn't shift his fingers to make sure his finger is pressing "as closely behind the fret as possible." It seems Jim is optimizing toward minimal finger movements.

Flea on the other hand keeps his finger closely behind the fret and shift his hand a lot.

My question is about which way to follow. I would like to be like Jim regarding finger movements. I feel it's hard to not buzz the string following Jim's approach but watching his playing I can see he is so relaxed and his fingers hardly move. Is it because the setup is very low to allow this?

 

[dreamadream99]

Ultimately, the only way you will survive a four hour gig, is by conserving your energy. On bass, this is accomplished primarily by economy of motion. For instance, fretting and not fretting should only be a difference of a few millimeters. Play right behind the fret, to minimize pressing hard. Relaxation starts at the finger, and works its way to the hand, wrist, forearm, shoulder, neck, and back.

Quite simply, if you play tense, you will tire quickly.

And yes, lower action makes it easier to play with a lighter touch.

 

[Wasnex]

IMHO, you should strive to play as efficiently as possible. That means using just enough pressure with your fretting hand to get a good sound. It also means you usually develop the most efficient fingering patterns with the least amount of shifts.

One reason you may not choose the most efficient finger and shift patterns is to get a different sound. Or you may use a harder pattern at one point in a song to set up and easier transition a few bars down the road.

IMHO...Part of what Flea does is about presenting a certain appearance of intensity. It's not what I would call a textbook example of great technique...although he is fairly technical player. So I am by no means saying he sucks, only that I don't think most should emulate his technique.

Just because you play well does not necessarily mean you have good technique. If you have enough talent, you can get away with being sloppy.

If you are super talented and want to copy Fleas sound and showmanship, then by all means, copy his technique. If not, prioritize emulating the other guy.

Learning to play is a life long journey. There are lots of things you will learn and eventually abandon. Part of the trick is learning what works for you. You keep some approaches exactly as learned, you modify some things to work better for you, and you may even make up some things from whole cloth. However the new thing you make up may not necessarily be original. Rather you figured out something that is widely known without seeing it done or being taught how to do it.

 

[WrapRough]

I've learned a lot from both players, but I've always said that Flea's technique is not really one to emulate IMO. Don't get me wrong, he'sa great player - but I think that's despite his technique, not because of it.

As for when to shift or 1FPF - it depends! What's next in the line? It may not make sense to play 1FPF and then have a big jump... it may better to play 1,2, shift etc...

Look at the line and play around with the fingering, and do what is the most efficient. By most efficient, I would say the fingering that minimises movement as much as possible, and minimises the size of jumps as much as possible.

 

[SteveCS]

Hi, another beginner question regarding technique.
I watched Flea bass lesson and also Real bass lessons and focus on how they play 1FPF. I found Jim doesn't shift his fingers to make sure his finger is pressing "as closely behind the fret as possible." It seems Jim is optimizing toward minimal finger movements.

View attachment 5065921

Flea on the other hand keeps his finger closely behind the fret and shift his hand a lot.
View attachment 5065922


My question is about which way to follow. I would like to be like Jim regarding finger movements. I feel it's hard to not buzz the string following Jim's approach but watching his playing I can see he is so relaxed and his fingers hardly move. Is it because the setup is very low to allow this?

That Flea thing is really nasty. First-off he says keep your thumb perpendicular to the neck. So when he has index down on F and middle on F# you can see his thumb is indeed perpendicular. Then by the time he has ring and pinky down on G and Ab his middle is out of position and the index is pointing backwards for no good reason. He teaches that one should keep the thumb perpendicular to the neck. But watch how his wrist, and with it the thumb/hand joint, is moving up and down. Are we to believe that every time his wrist moves his thumb is following along, remaining perpendicular? Of course not! Unfortunately the lighting is terrible and there are no shots of the back of the neck, but here ...

... you can the contact point of the thumb is not moving. By the time he gets to the Ab with pinky his thumb is poking out behind index and is about 40° to the neck, i.e. 50° from perpendicular:

This thumb pivot is a crucial aspect of all methods but he totally fails to mention that he is doing it all the time. But the flying fingers are also really not a good example to set. Fine if you are a 'character' player but not the stuff of good teaching. Don't just take my word for it - check out 2:21 - 2:26 in the Jim Stinnett video!! If I had to recommend one over the other it would be the Jim Stinnett every time.

That said, in the lower positions, as you already noticed, Jim is not always consistently close to the fret with 1FPF, and you can hear quite a lot of extraneous noises.

My personal preference is a Simandl-like approach with a 1-2-4 or 1-3-4 in the lower positions, which gets the fingertips much better placed for clean stops and, important to me as a fretless player, pitch-perfect intonation. I then might switch to 1FPF above 5-7, depending on demand, key etc. And almost certainly 1FPF above the octave. In lower positions it is easy to use 'extended' fingering (to play intervals such a m3) in lower positions using thumb pivots without over-stretching the hand. Using the pivot the thumb stays in position but the whole hand moves up a half-step or even a whole-step. You then pivot back or the thumb follows on to faciiate a 2-step shift - hand then thumb. Ascending, the thumb leads the shift, again in 2 steps 1: extend the thumb back to locate the new position 2) the hand follows on and falls into position around the thumb. So although I might be playing say F with index and Ab with pinky, I don't really consider this a 1FPF because the index comes away from the F and goes over F#, yet the thumb doesn't move - it pivots.

EDIT - I will add one more point, which is that I see a lot of talk in technique discussions about economy of motion and staying in position. TBH, I think bass players would do well to put extra work into accurate and secure shifting. It is very much the bogeyman when it comes to technical elements - get confidence with shifting and you will soon start to not really care if you are playing 1-2-3-4, 1-2-4, 1-3-4 or anything else. Start by playing scales up and down on 1 string...

+++++++++++++

I know we are talking about left-hand here, but it is all in the detail. Check out 5:00 - 5:21. He is recommending strict alternation, but twice in a row he fluffs it. First time he plays

1-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-1-2-1-1-2, then in the second attempt he goes
1-2-1-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-1-2-1-1-2

He consistently plays the first two notes of the scale 1-1 (except when he tries not to) and consistently rakes with 1 on the way down. In the second example, where he starts 1-2, see how he drops in a 1-1 in the next pair to 'reset' and defer to muscle-memory. Not saying it is right or wrong (and who am I to critique Jim Stinnett?) but he sure ain't doing what he says he is.

 

[Wasnex]

I don't play right on top of the fret. My hand is not big enough to do this with 1FPF, and also I don't necessarily think that playing on the fret gives the best/cleanest sound.

I found this problematic when I was trying to master fretless. It caused intonation problem and meant I needed to revert to Simandl fingering on fretless. IMHO, way to confusing to use two fingering systems on bass guitar and I wasn't willing to give up the advantages of 1FPF on fretted. My solution was to get an EUB.

 

[Wasnex]

I find that much of my fingering system uses primarily 1,2,3 combinations. In other words I use many playing patterns that don't involve the pinkie, or perhaps don't rely heavily on the pinkie. There are definitely times when all four fingers are used/beneficial.

I can force 2,3,4 combinations as subs for 1,2,3 combinations, but I find they are harder on my hand and less accurate/precise. The pinkie really is pretty weak and it has more of a linkage to the ring finger (I.e. there is less independence between the pinkie and ring finger).

My point is you may not necessarily develop all combinations to the same proficiency and endurance. Some finger combinations are easier and some are harder.

Sometime it makes sense to jump back and forth between a 1,2,3 combination lower on the neck and a 2,3,4 combination a few frets higher. This reduces the size of the jump/shift. For example, you might play (CD) 1-3 and, then jump up and play (ED) 4-2.

 

[teh-slb]

My question is about which way to follow.

I'm not neither a teacher nor a pro so please take this with lumps of salt: just pick one you find more comfortable and get it under your belt. Your technique is most likely to change down the line anyway, due to changes in music taste, advancing age, etc.

 

[KevInDaBassment]

Ultimately, the only way you will survive a four hour gig, is by conserving your energy. On bass, this is accomplished primarily by economy of motion. For instance, fretting and not fretting should only be a difference of a few millimeters. Play right behind the fret, to minimize pressing hard. Relaxation starts at the finger, and works its way to the hand, wrist, forearm, shoulder, neck, and back.

Quite simply, if you play tense, you will tire quickly.

And yes, lower action makes it easier to play with a lighter touch.

Pretty much says it all ^

Go with what Jim is doing. I spent years trying to "Un-Flea" my technique, since I tried to emulate his playing early on. Sure, it looked flashy and impressed non-musicians when they watched me, but hand and shoulder pain caught up with me eventually.

"Economy of motion" is such a perfect way to put it as well...move your fretting hand as little as cleanly possible, save the energy and dynamics for your plucking/picking/slapping hand.

 

[Lobster11]

That Flea thing is really nasty. First-off he says keep your thumb perpendicular to the neck. So when he has index down on F and middle on F# you can see his thumb is indeed perpendicular. Then by the time he has ring and pinky down on G and Ab his middle is out of position and the index is pointing backwards for no good reason. He teaches that one should keep the thumb perpendicular to the neck. But watch how his wrist, and with it the thumb/hand joint, is moving up and down. Are we to believe that every time his wrist moves his thumb is following along, remaining perpendicular? Of course not! Unfortunately the lighting is terrible and there are no shots of the back of the neck, but here ...
View attachment 5066163
... you can the contact point of the thumb is not moving. By the time he gets to the Ab with pinky his thumb is poking out behind index and is about 40° to the neck, i.e. 50° from perpendicular:
View attachment 5066172

This thumb pivot is a crucial aspect of all methods but he totally fails to mention that he is doing it all the time. But the flying fingers are also really not a good example to set. Fine if you are a 'character' player but not the stuff of good teaching. Don't just take my word for it - check out 2:21 - 2:26 in the Jim Stinnett video!! If I had to recommend one over the other it would be the Jim Stinnett every time.

That said, in the lower positions, as you already noticed, Jim is not always consistently close to the fret with 1FPF, and you can hear quite a lot of extraneous noises.

My personal preference is a Simandl-like approach with a 1-2-4 or 1-3-4 in the lower positions, which gets the fingertips much better placed for clean stops and, important to me as a fretless player, pitch-perfect intonation. I then might switch to 1FPF above 5-7, depending on demand, key etc. And almost certainly 1FPF above the octave. In lower positions it is easy to use 'extended' fingering (to play intervals such a m3) in lower positions using thumb pivots without over-stretching the hand. Using the pivot the thumb stays in position but the whole hand moves up a half-step or even a whole-step. You then pivot back or the thumb follows on to faciiate a 2-step shift - hand then thumb. Ascending, the thumb leads the shift, again in 2 steps 1: extend the thumb back to locate the new position 2) the hand follows on and falls into position around the thumb. So although I might be playing say F with index and Ab with pinky, I don't really consider this a 1FPF because the index comes away from the F and goes over F#, yet the thumb doesn't move - it pivots.

EDIT - I will add one more point, which is that I see a lot of talk in technique discussions about economy of motion and staying in position. TBH, I think bass players would do well to put extra work into accurate and secure shifting. It is very much the bogeyman when it comes to technical elements - get confidence with shifting and you will soon start to not really care if you are playing 1-2-3-4, 1-2-4, 1-3-4 or anything else. Start by playing scales up and down on 1 string...

+++++++++++++

I know we are talking about left-hand here, but it is all in the detail. Check out 5:00 - 5:21. He is recommending strict alternation, but twice in a row he fluffs it. First time he plays

1-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-1-2-1-1-2, then in the second attempt he goes
1-2-1-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-1-2-1-1-2

He consistently plays the first two notes of the scale 1-1 (except when he tries not to) and consistently rakes with 1 on the way down. In the second example, where he starts 1-2, see how he drops in a 1-1 in the next pair to 'reset' and defer to muscle-memory. Not saying it is right or wrong (and who am I to critique Jim Stinnett?) but he sure ain't doing what he says he is.

I have nothing to add except to say that everyone should listen to this guy.

 

[Thumpin6string]

As one who has played bass for almost 50 years, I have to say I feel like an idiot because I have no idea what 1fpf is. Based on the original post, I would not worry what Flea or the other guy says and do whatever feels best for you IMHO.

 

[micguy]

I have ginormous hands - if there's anyone who should be able to take advantage of one finger per fret, it's me. But I'm not an adherent to that philosophy. Call me Mr Shifty (there's an F in there!).

I do a LOT of double stops - octaves, fifths, sometimes other intervals, and occasional triads. My playing doesn't take over the mix, but it's not strictly speaking one note at a time. To play those intervals, you have to shift - there really isn't a way around it. So, I shift. It hasn't resulted in wrist issues (I started playing bass 46 years ago), and I can play the parts I come up with as fast as I need to without problems.

I understand there's an argument for economy of motion, but if staying in one position prohibits you from playing what you want/need to, then the approach is not a help, it's getting in the way.

 

[mambo4]

I used to believe I should not shift within one position
Then I saw Rocco Prestia doing it
Then I saw Ray Brown doing it
Now I move my left hand whenever I need to and don't sweat it
One Finger per Fret is far easier in those first few positions now.

 

[mambo4]

he says keep your thumb perpendicular to the neck

I'll also add that using English to describe the orientation of body parts and basses in 3D space is almost always incomplete information. There are multiple possible orientations that qualify as "perpendicular to the neck". Something that can easily be miscommunicated.

Pictures and videos are better of course.

 

[Wasnex]

1FPF = one finger per fret. I usually define it and then add (OFPF) after the explanation. For this thread I will continue with 1FPF.

Whether you use 1FPF or a three finger approach such as Simandl, economy of motion is still the goal. 1FPF does typically reduce the number of shifts that are required. It also changes the logic of when you should shift. It does not eliminate the need to shift.

A few years after I turned full-time pro, it was becoming more and more apparent that I would benefit from using 1FPF. I was frequently playing extremely fast, technical soli lines with various horn sections. In particular, I remember doing a performance series with Eric Marienthal that I found very challenging with the Simandl-based fingering system I was using at the time. The lines were simply too fast for me to play well with a bunch of shifts.

The music had different technical requirements than the typical Rocco Prestia bass line. I have never really felt any of the Rocco lines I have played benefitted specifically from 1FPF. In fact, I sometimes revert to Simandl when I play Rocco lines.

Not everyone will benefit from 1FPF, and I don't necessarily think everyone should learn it. But it did help me elevate my playing to a new level.

 

[brianrost]

I switch between 1fpf and Simandl all the time on bass guitar. On DB of course, Simandl all the way.

If I'm playing a pattern that lies over three frets (like R-5-b7-oct) I'll use Simandl, even way up the neck. If I'm playing scalar patterns, I ue 1fpf. I don't really think about it any more, switching back and forth within one song, etc.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Hi, another beginner question regarding technique.
I watched Flea bass lesson and also Real bass lessons and focus on how they play 1FPF. I found Jim doesn't shift his fingers to make sure his finger is pressing "as closely behind the fret as possible." It seems Jim is optimizing toward minimal finger movements.

View attachment 5065921

Flea on the other hand keeps his finger closely behind the fret and shift his hand a lot.
View attachment 5065922


My question is about which way to follow. I would like to be like Jim regarding finger movements. I feel it's hard to not buzz the string following Jim's approach but watching his playing I can see he is so relaxed and his fingers hardly move. Is it because the setup is very low to allow this?

If you have to contort as shown on the Flea pic, I assure you it is not necessary. You work on what works for you.

 

[JamesInn]

That Flea thing is really nasty. First-off he says keep your thumb perpendicular to the neck. So when he has index down on F and middle on F# you can see his thumb is indeed perpendicular. Then by the time he has ring and pinky down on G and Ab his middle is out of position and the index is pointing backwards for no good reason. He teaches that one should keep the thumb perpendicular to the neck. But watch how his wrist, and with it the thumb/hand joint, is moving up and down. Are we to believe that every time his wrist moves his thumb is following along, remaining perpendicular? Of course not! Unfortunately the lighting is terrible and there are no shots of the back of the neck, but here ...
View attachment 5066163
... you can the contact point of the thumb is not moving. By the time he gets to the Ab with pinky his thumb is poking out behind index and is about 40° to the neck, i.e. 50° from perpendicular:
View attachment 5066172

This thumb pivot is a crucial aspect of all methods but he totally fails to mention that he is doing it all the time. But the flying fingers are also really not a good example to set. Fine if you are a 'character' player but not the stuff of good teaching. Don't just take my word for it - check out 2:21 - 2:26 in the Jim Stinnett video!! If I had to recommend one over the other it would be the Jim Stinnett every time.

That said, in the lower positions, as you already noticed, Jim is not always consistently close to the fret with 1FPF, and you can hear quite a lot of extraneous noises.

My personal preference is a Simandl-like approach with a 1-2-4 or 1-3-4 in the lower positions, which gets the fingertips much better placed for clean stops and, important to me as a fretless player, pitch-perfect intonation. I then might switch to 1FPF above 5-7, depending on demand, key etc. And almost certainly 1FPF above the octave. In lower positions it is easy to use 'extended' fingering (to play intervals such a m3) in lower positions using thumb pivots without over-stretching the hand. Using the pivot the thumb stays in position but the whole hand moves up a half-step or even a whole-step. You then pivot back or the thumb follows on to faciiate a 2-step shift - hand then thumb. Ascending, the thumb leads the shift, again in 2 steps 1: extend the thumb back to locate the new position 2) the hand follows on and falls into position around the thumb. So although I might be playing say F with index and Ab with pinky, I don't really consider this a 1FPF because the index comes away from the F and goes over F#, yet the thumb doesn't move - it pivots.

EDIT - I will add one more point, which is that I see a lot of talk in technique discussions about economy of motion and staying in position. TBH, I think bass players would do well to put extra work into accurate and secure shifting. It is very much the bogeyman when it comes to technical elements - get confidence with shifting and you will soon start to not really care if you are playing 1-2-3-4, 1-2-4, 1-3-4 or anything else. Start by playing scales up and down on 1 string...

+++++++++++++

I know we are talking about left-hand here, but it is all in the detail. Check out 5:00 - 5:21. He is recommending strict alternation, but twice in a row he fluffs it. First time he plays

1-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-1-2-1-1-2, then in the second attempt he goes
1-2-1-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-1-2-1-1-2

He consistently plays the first two notes of the scale 1-1 (except when he tries not to) and consistently rakes with 1 on the way down. In the second example, where he starts 1-2, see how he drops in a 1-1 in the next pair to 'reset' and defer to muscle-memory. Not saying it is right or wrong (and who am I to critique Jim Stinnett?) but he sure ain't doing what he says he is.

Thank you for this. I learned a lot from this post.

 

[Malcolm35]

IMO -- One finger per fret until your fingers start deciding which finger will get the next note. When this happens - let it happen. It's a good thing.

 

[Watchootognbout]

Use what fingering you can when you can.