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Double Bass 4ths in thumb position

S

shwashwa

Aug 30, 2003
4,796
2,009
NJ
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#1
i'm posting this in both the jazz and orchestral technique sections because while i'm currently asking it in a jazz context, the question is equally valid in a classical format.

how do you play 4ths in thumb position. i have some ideas, but i want to hear opinions. the specific line i'm talking about would be like up a fourth and down a minor third ie. g-c-a. very fast, and this pattern transposes a few times so it would be nice to have a fingering that i can move.

i'm personally toying with the idea of using fingers 2 and 3 for the 4th and the thumb on the A. let's hear your ideas.
 
#5
Going up a 4th and down a 3rd, G to C to A...you've still got me lost I guess.

T - 1- 3 for G, A and C? That's what I'd do, if I was doing it all on the same string.

Maybe 3 for G, T for C, and 2 for A if I did it across the strings...but then C and A would be an octave lower. Another might be 3 for G, 1 (instead of 2) for C, and T for A.

I'd do 1 instead of 2, anyway. Rake the D and A strings and pull off to get the last note.
 
#6
This is a really good question. I agree with your initial fingering. I think I would do the same. However, what about something that doesn't lay well on the board? What about when you need to use your thumb to play four quick fourths like say, c-f-c-f? I wonder if anyone has any solutions to this problem other than a clunky shift?
 
#7
you've got the pitches right, but the wrong order. starting on G, it's up a 4th, down a minor third. g to c ascend is a fourth, c to a decending is a minor third. i'm looking for fingering suggestions. i'm playing it 2 on g (d string), cross strings 3 on c (g string) and thumb on a (g string). i suppose it could all be done on one string as you suggested, but i would have a hard time with that one, especially moving it around to different keys.
 
#9
I think I understand you....up a fourth (across the strings), then down a minor third, right? My question is about ascending and descending or more specifically- a back and forth kind of thing. How do you deal with raising and moving your thumb between two notes side by side on the fingerboard? It is such difficult 'shift'. If the strings were low enough you could almost bar them but thats difficult as well. Sometimes it is possible to stretch the hand and reach for the fourth on the same string but often that is not practical for the rest of the passage. Anythoughts?
 
#10
Jason Sypher said:
no, I think I hear you....up a fourth, down a minor third right? My question is about ascending, yes....
Click to expand...

sorry, my order of the pitches comment was for johnny l. from his post i dont think he was getting what i was saying. so you would finger that patter, up a 4th, down a minor 3rd, the same way as me? in general, do people use 2 fingers for 4ths in thumb position? in the lower positions i just barre with one finger, but that's not possible up high.

as far as your questions goes, which F is the low one? the lowest F on the bass or the one an octave higher. if it's the one an octave higher, you can play the whole line in thumb position T -1-2-3, but that all depends on what comes before and after it.
if you want to start on the F on the A string i guess i would try to play the 1st 3 notes in one position, ending on 4, and then shifting to 3 on the C in thumb. the problem with your line seems to be more the interval of a 5th rather than a 4th.
 
#11
shwashwa said:
...in general, do people use 2 fingers for 4ths in thumb position? in the lower positions i just barre with one finger, but that's not possible up high.
Click to expand...

Yeah, 2 fingers is what I do if I'm playing a 4th interval across the strings rather than on the same string in thumb position...though I suppose I'm technically playing with two fingers when I'm doing it on the same string too.

My entire hand is over the fingerboard when I'm playing in thumb position. I'm not able to bar across.

Ok now I understand what you mean thanks. Yeah going up from the D string to the G string, it is kinda awkward for the right hand when velocity is your intention. I'd work it on the same string, myself, but your fingering idea is pretty neat I must say.

oh I just peeked at the orchestra answers. I didn't think of barring with the thumb. That's a neat idea too.
 
#15
I believe i understand what is being asked here. My DB Professor wrote a packet on this to hand out to us concerning the impact of the Bach Cello suites on the double bass repetoire and technique. In it, he describes what he calls the "finger bar" i believe.(I haven't read the packet lately, and I don't have it on me at the moment, so I'm going from memory) Basically, you would pivot the wrist, so as to almost bring the straightened thumb (which was being utilized as it would in Thumb Pos.) parallel to the board and strings. Then use 1 to finger C and 2 to finger the fourth above, in this case F.

I hope I've described this technique so as it can be understood. Like I said, I'm going entirely by why I remember reading and from what was taught to us in Masterclass.
 
#16
i'd like to ressurrect this thread as i'm still being driven nuts by thumb position pentatonic patterns. how would you finger this in thumb position starting on high c: c (down to) g down to f up to Bb down to g down to f down to c down to Bb up to Eb ? lets say 16th notes at 100bpm. or faster.
 
#17
I don't know that I fully understand the passage you mention, but let me illustrate a more common descending pentatonic patterns with lots of 4ths:

C-Bb-G-C...Bb-G-F-Bb...G-F-Eb-G...F-Eb-C-F...Eb-C-Bb-Eb...C etc.

In a pentatonic situation like this one in TP, I'd always find an alternative to the "bridge" or "bar" method of using the same finger to play the 4ths. For example, one possible fingering for the above pattern would be (where "+" stands for thumb):

3-1-2-3...1-3-1-+...3-1-+-3...1-+-2-3...1-3-1-+...3 etc.

While it might seem unwieldy at first, it does enable you to put full arm weight on each LH stop and make the whole passage playable in a legato phrasing. Intonation is a bit tricky, but when isn't it? IMO, YMMV, YMWCB, etc... :)
 
#18
very interesting... so you do the "2 finger" method that i asked about earlier in the thread i see. that pattern below is similar to the stuff i'm working on. the main thing i see here is that you also play the "bar" between the 1st finger and the thumb. this seems very difficult to me, espesially when the thumb is followed by the 3rd finger as in the transition from the 2nd to the 3rd grouping below. would you care to elaborate on some things to keep in mind technically when using the thumb and first finger in this way? it seem that you may have to rotate your wrist slightly? please expand on it as much as possible as i'm starting to get frustrated with these types of patterns...
thanks!

Chris Fitzgerald said:
I don't know that I fully understand the passage you mention, but let me illustrate a more common descending pentatonic patterns with lots of 4ths:

C-Bb-G-C...Bb-G-F-Bb...G-F-Eb-G...F-Eb-C-F...Eb-C-Bb-Eb...C etc.

In a pentatonic situation like this one in TP, I'd always find an alternative to the "bridge" or "bar" method of using the same finger to play the 4ths. For example, one possible fingering for the above pattern would be (where "+" stands for thumb):

3-1-2-3...1-3-1-+...3-1-+-3...1-+-2-3...1-3-1-+...3 etc.

While it might seem unwieldy at first, it does enable you to put full arm weight on each LH stop and make the whole passage playable in a legato phrasing. Intonation is a bit tricky, but when isn't it? IMO, YMMV, YMWCB, etc... :)
Click to expand...
 
#19
Well, for starters, I believe in making each LH stop with the weight of the arm behind it, and that the fingers are simply the end of one big mechanism which begins in the torso (but which can be more conveniently be thought of as beginning in the shoulder or elbow if it helps bring better visualization results). With every digit except the thumb, I practice the bars as harmonic double stops, and try to use the shoulder/elbow part of the mechanism to line the fingers up to be in tune. It's amazing how a tiny shoulder/elbow motion can result in huge differences in intonation, and I find it easier to intonate this way than by trying to adjust at the level of the fingers, which (on my hand, at least) have very little lateral small motor control.

The thumb (IMO, of course) is the lone exception to this principle, as it has complete range of motion and strength independent of the other fingers. While I still like to use arm weight to create the thumb stop, in the instances where it is part of a "4th bar" I'll use the lateral dexterity of the thumb to intonate the upper part of the 4th...it's kind of like Rabbath's "crab" technique in some weird way. Other than that, it's all about slow practice with the shoulder/elbow assembly doing most of the intonation work and the fingers just being fixed means to an end. The thumb is the joker in the deck that can act in an independent manner. Does that make any sense?
 
#20
thanks for the explanation. i feel pretty good about everything except the thumb/1st finger barre. for me to get the thumb down where my callous is while keeping my first finger down i have to turn my hand alot. i guess it's just a matter of practice to feel comfortable.

Chris Fitzgerald said:
Well, for starters, I believe in making each LH stop with the weight of the arm behind it, and that the fingers are simply the end of one big mechanism which begins in the torso (but which can be more conveniently be thought of as beginning in the shoulder or elbow if it helps bring better visualization results). With every digit except the thumb, I practice the bars as harmonic double stops, and try to use the shoulder/elbow part of the mechanism to line the fingers up to be in tune. It's amazing how a tiny shoulder/elbow motion can result in huge differences in intonation, and I find it easier to intonate this way than by trying to adjust at the level of the fingers, which (on my hand, at least) have very little lateral small motor control.

The thumb (IMO, of course) is the lone exception to this principle, as it has complete range of motion and strength independent of the other fingers. While I still like to use arm weight to create the thumb stop, in the instances where it is part of a "4th bar" I'll use the lateral dexterity of the thumb to intonate the upper part of the 4th...it's kind of like Rabbath's "crab" technique in some weird way. Other than that, it's all about slow practice with the shoulder/elbow assembly doing most of the intonation work and the fingers just being fixed means to an end. The thumb is the joker in the deck that can act in an independent manner. Does that make any sense?
Click to expand...
 

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