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Double Bass 7/8 & Full size bass

#21
David: I've had the pleasure, many times, of being close to Gary Karr while he's playing. I have to wonder whether your dislike for his sound is based on recordings, or his sound.

Gary's sound, unlike just about every other bassist I've heard, is intended and constructed to cut over an orchestra. When, for instance, I saw Ed Barker solo with the Boston Symphony, he played well but his sound just didn't cut like Gary's. Ed sounded like a wonderful, musical section player; Gary sounds like a soloist -- "I, AM, HERE!"

George: Gary Karr's main bass -- the Koussevitsky Amati-label Thang of Beeooty -- is a regular-small flat-back viol-corner 3/4 bass. It's PLENTY o' loud when Gary's operating it.

I know you play bluegrass. The banjo is designed to sound louder than a snare-drum. The double-bass, plucked, in general, is not. If I'm playing with a piano -- let alone a drummer -- in public, I bring an amp, and I've searched long and well for a set-up that makes my bass sound like my bass, but louder than any blinking banjo, and isn't so big that its looks make people upset. The bottom line is that if your band-mates don't want you to be as loud as them, take that for what it's worth.

EDITED, 30 MONTHS LATER: Gee, it's amazing what hanging around here will do for ya. Nowadays most of my gigs are in dinky spots, and I try hard not to bring an amp. Thanks for all the good examples, folks.
 
#22
Originally posted by Samuel
David: I've had the pleasure, many times, of being close to Gary Karr while he's playing. I have to wonder whether your dislike for his sound is based on recordings, or his sound.

Gary's sound, unlike just about every other bassist I've heard, is intended and constructed to cut over an orchestra. When, for instance, I saw Ed Barker solo with the Boston Symphony, he played well but his sound just didn't cut like Gary's. Ed sounded like a wonderful, musical section player; Gary sounds like a soloist -- "I, AM, HERE!"
Click to expand...

I've heard Gary play in person. I respect your comment about his sound being designed to cut through an orchestra, though he's been often quoted as saying he thinks section players should play like that. I've heard other soloists who had warmer sounds and had no problem cutting through. When I heard Hal Robinson perform a concerto with the Philadelphia Orch. his sound was very dark and warm, yet he projected over the orchestra with ease. This leads me to think a bass does not have to almost sound ponticello in order to cut through an orchestra.
 
#23
<<This leads me to think a bass has to almost sound ponticello in order to cut through an orchestra.>>

DAVID: There's no doubt that Gary can play VERY close to the bridge and still make things work. More important than simply playing ponticello, though, is his concept of bow-speed and resin. The gist of it -- with apologies to Gary if I mangle it -- is: a) go slower for a lower note, and go slower as you move closer to the brige; b) go slow enough to allow every notch of horse-hair to do its work; and c) don't goop up the bow with sticky resin, so notches remain to do work. Almost everybody's bow-speed is faster than Gary's, resulting in a sound that some might call "airier" but I (as a Karr fan) think of as "foofier." I believe you and I agree that Gary Karr's sound ain't foofy.
 
#24
Originally posted by Samuel
I know you play bluegrass. The banjo is designed to sound louder than a snare-drum. The double-bass, plucked, in general, is not. If I'm playing with a piano -- let alone a drummer -- in public, I bring an amp, and I've searched long and well for a set-up that makes my bass sound like my bass, but louder than any blinking banjo, and isn't so big that its looks make people upset. The bottom line is that if your band-mates don't want you to be as loud as them, take that for what it's worth.
Click to expand...

Well, the bass can be as loud as a snare drum if 1) The drummer isn't trying to beat the crap out of it 2) You develop a great projecting pizz sound.

#2 takes some time. After 10 years, I'm just now where I'm confident enough to play *sans* amp with a drummer. Ron Carter will not let any of his students use an amp until they develop that sound. It is a learning process, but I know that my sound is getting to that last row now when I used to have to rely on pickups to do it. Of course, it also depends on your bass and your approach; you won't get there with a low action and an electric type right hand approach (pizz up high on the fingerboard).

Monte
 
#25
Originally posted by Samuel
<<This leads me to think a bass has to almost sound ponticello in order to cut through an orchestra.>>

DAVID: There's no doubt that Gary can play VERY close to the bridge and still make things work. More important than simply playing ponticello, though, is his concept of bow-speed and resin. The gist of it -- with apologies to Gary if I mangle it -- is: a) go slower for a lower note, and go slower as you move closer to the brige; b) go slow enough to allow every notch of horse-hair to do its work; and c) don't goop up the bow with sticky resin, so notches remain to do work. Almost everybody's bow-speed is faster than Gary's, resulting in a sound that some might call "airier" but I (as a Karr fan) think of as "foofier." I believe you and I agree that Gary Karr's sound ain't foofy.
Click to expand...

Note: I previously mistyped the last sentence of my previous post. It should have read: does not have to sound ponticello.

But that aside. I think your characterization as "foofier" is misleading. That seems to denote a lack of clarity and focus. I think that is one extreme, I think Karr is at the other extreme.

The way I hear it, Karr's sound over-emphasizes the harmonics and lacks fundamental. To me, (I do realize this is sacreligious) his sound is cold, harsh, nasily, and whiny, though admittedly clear and focused. I've heard others, namely Hal Robinson, who IMO did not sound cold, harsh, nasily, or whiny, had a full, warm tone and yet were clear and focused, and projected very well.

I'm not saying don't dig Karr, he's unbelievable. My point is that there are other equally valid approaches (sounds really, I don't want to get into Gary's technique in this thread, maybe another). My beef is that Gary seems to dismiss this. It seems in his world everyone should play a bass like his and emulate his sound.
 
#26
Originally posted by Samuel
<<This leads me to think a bass has to almost sound ponticello in order to cut through an orchestra.>>

DAVID: There's no doubt that Gary can play VERY close to the bridge and still make things work. More important than simply playing ponticello, though, is his concept of bow-speed and resin.
Click to expand...

Has Karr switched from a Swedish to a Columbian bow hair treatment? I hadn't heard of this until now.
 
#29
I'm kind of with Special K on Karr's sound, although I've never heard him in person. No doubt, his bow control is phenomenal, but I think he spends too much time too close to the bridge. Just because you can, doesn't mean you have to.
And since this thread is about bass size, I want to be emphatic in disagreeing with Karr that all DB's should have standard dimensions. When I walk into my luthier's shop and see all the different shapes and sizes, I swoon. Maybe that's why I have five basses (just sold no. 6):D
 
#32
back to the original focus of this thread.

FWIW, like Don I have five basses (more or less one for each room; I tell my wife this is simple prudence. One just doesn't want to be caught short of double basses!).

My largest is slightly odd design made by Johanes Rubner before he retired; a big and really deep 7/8ish body, paired with modest 41" mensure. This big body, according to standard thinking, ought to move a lot of air, but in fact it is not at all my loudest bass. It speaks pretty easily under the bow, and has a lovely, well-defined and well-behaved "orchestral" tone, which is what I got it for. But loud, it ain't. Pizzed it also produces unexceptional volume, though does have a nice kick drum-like bump just at the outset of the note. I don't use this bass for jazz.

By far my loudest bass, and best projector, happens to be a typical 3/4 size.

I can see the simple logic of the "bigger surface - more air moved" theory, but I daresay it's more complicated than than. A possible offsetting argument could be "more wood, more mass to soak up vibrating string energy which might other wise be given off as sound."

I suspect the only sure thing one can say is that there are a lot of complicated interacting factors underlying tone production, and simple generalisations are not often reliable. Judge each bass on its own.
 
#35
Gary Karr has a great recorded sound. My ears aren't communicating revulsion to my brain at all.

In fact, I think it's quite cool to have such a distinctive sound. Coupled with impeccable technique, seems that's what being a soloist is all about to me.
 
#37
I played David Walter's Testore the other day. A little, guitar-shaped thing. It's definitely 'The Wiggle', as Donosaurus might say. Testosterone plays too far in the choice of basses and setup. Get the sound and the volume and drop the BS is my best advice.

If recording engineers like it, it probably isn't projecting for beans.

If it sounds bright and mean and not terribly loud from the driver's chair, it probably sounds full and clear out front,

If it sounds warm and loud, it probably sounds like a ladle on a cardboard box out front, if anyone can hear it at all. It may record well, however.

Most rooms outside of New York (not considering concert halls) are too big, noisy and rotten sounding to worry too much about idealistic preconceptions of what a bass can do. At best you you'll limit a drummer, if you have one, to quadruple pianissimo to MF at best. You'll not find a lot of luck getting the music out of a group when almost nobody can play with any presence at those volume levels.

I play about 80% acoustically with a big bass. low action and light strings, and still register in the top 15-20% volumewise. Big deal. All it does is kick my ass for the most part. Life at FFFF.

Also, differentiate between loud and big. I've heard some guys get a huge sound, but it wasn't very loud (Scott LaFaro, by all reports) and guys get a loud sound that had all the clarity and beauty of a B3 player's left foot (Rodney Whittacre) -- so make your assumptions about sound from that perspective for a sec.

Put a good recording mic out front and see what you're getting...
 
#40
Looking for an inexpensive first double-bass to use for bluegrass and rockabilly. I've been a bass guitarist for many years and my only experience of uprights is playing around with a EUB, which I found easier to play than I expected.

The best instrument I've found on sale at a reasonable price so far is in fact a 4/4 size bass. I'd appreciate any advice on whether this is worth pursuing, or is it a complete no-no for a beginner learning to play these styles and strictly for the orchestral guys?
 

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