8th/16th rhythmic pattern with pick

[elarue]

I'm posting this here because I can't find a good resource on rhythmic patterns on Google. But I'm trying to play what I think is a straightforward rhythmic pattern, but I mess it up on the picking direction. It's a simple eighth note followed by two sixteenth notes repeated. Eventually it will move to different notes, but right now I want to get the rhythm right.

So the pattern is:

1 &a2 &a3 &a4 &a

So with a pick, should I play it
d dud dud dud du

Or should I play it
d udu dud udu du

I know some people may say to just pick one that feels more comfortable, but I'm still trying to figure out which method would be more economical and stick to it. The first seems like it would be more natural with the downpick on the stronger beats, but I've had a hard time getting that one to work, which is why I'm considering the alternative.

Thanks!

 

[Lobster11]

As you know, the two options you listed represent the two primary schools of thought about this -- i.e., either play downstrokes on downbeats and upstrokes on upbeats, or strictly alternate up-down no matter what. Fortunately, the two approaches often (usually?) coincide, but they diverge when you get into triplets or other groupings of odd numbers. I think there are good arguments on both sides, each with its own proponents, and I honestly don't think that either is inherently better than the other.

So, I'm afraid it really does come down to whatever works better for you. Personally I use both, depending on other factors such as the tempo. If I were playing your example at a slower tempo, I'd be able to use the "d dud dud dud du" pattern comfortably, and keeping the downstrokes on the downbeat would help me feel the groove. If the tempo were faster, though, it would be much easier to maintain strict alternation, and keeping the downstrokes on the downbeats would feel less important. So, while I agree that it's a good idea to pick one method and stick with it, I don't think it's necessary to "stick with" one for every song under every circumstances. That is, I'd pick one (and stick with it) for a particular tune, but I might pick the other (and stick with it) for a different tune.

 

[elarue]

All right. So it sounds like the "proper" solution is to try it both ways and see which one is easier, then keep practicing that one. Do I have it right?

 

[Lobster11]

All right. So it sounds like the "proper" solution is to try it both ways and see which one is easier, then keep practicing that one. Do I have it right?

Well, that's my opinion, and I'm usually not one to say "do whatever works for you." I don't generally believe that there is just one "right" way to do things, but I do believe there are "wrong ways" that should be avoided -- because they might either hamper further progress or potentially lead to injury over the long term. In this case, though, I think both approaches are equally "good," so I think it really does come down to what works for you.

Where I think you might find some disagreement is that there are proponents of the view that you should always alternate up-down, no matter what, and I presume there are probably also proponents of the view that you should always play downstrokes on downbeats, no matter what. There are good arguments on both sides, and maybe it is a good idea to "always" do one or the other -- but my own opinion is that it's okay to use different techniques for different songs/lines/tempos.

 

[bkbirge]

I suggest get good enough at both methods that you can decide which to use depending on the sound, the tune, or whatever reason strikes your fancy in the moment.

 

[Groove Doctor]

The first seems like it would be more natural with the downpick on the stronger beats, but I've had a hard time getting that one to work, which is why I'm considering the alternative.

What specifically are you finding hard about that?
- Tempo? Slow it right down and work on gradually increasing speed over a week or three.
- Pattern? Try a ghost note in the space, then gradually omit it.

 

[IamGroot]

Former guitar player, use pick about 5% of time.

Use what make sense. Be able to do both since you keep direction usually when you cross strings.
Consider all downstrokes..it has a different feel. James Brown used to fine the bass player if they didn't use all downstrokes.

Watch Carlos Santanas picking hand for inspiration.

For rhythm ideas, look at youtube.

 

[Lobster11]

Consider all downstrokes..it has a different feel. James Brown used to fine the bass player if they didn't use all downstrokes.

Now that you've brought up the "downstrokes only" approach.... A couple of years ago I did a Skype lesson with Julie Slick, who I think is one of the best pickstyle players out there, and we talked a lot about these issues. She said that she actually uses only downstrokes much of the time, and switches to alternate picking only when she is playing "really fast." However, her idea of what constitutes "really fast" is way different from what I consider really fast: There are things that she plays with downstrokes only that I can barely keep up with by alternating. So, for me, downstrokes-only is an option only at relatively slow tempos -- and on those kinds of songs I'm more likely than not playing fingerstyle anyway.

Watch Carlos Santanas picking hand for inspiration.

Or, watch Julie's picking hand on a bass. This video seems to be designed primarily to show off her left-hand (fretting) technique -- which is an amazing thing to watch in its own right -- but it also provides some great views of her right-hand (picking) technique as well:

 

[elarue]

Former guitar player, use pick about 5% of time.

Use what make sense. Be able to do both since you keep direction usually when you cross strings.
Consider all downstrokes..it has a different feel. James Brown used to fine the bass player if they didn't use all downstrokes.

Watch Carlos Santanas picking hand for inspiration.

For rhythm ideas, look at youtube.

I've heard the all downstrokes philosophy on both guitar and bass, and I would agree, at slower tempos, there's a logic to that school of thought. But at faster tempos (including the one I would be playing this song at) doing so would be impractical. If you can do it, more power to you.

And in case you're wondering, I'm targeting playing this rhythm at 120bpm. Try counting this rhythm at that tempo. If you still think all downstrokes is doable at that speed, I'm willing to give it a shot.

 

[Lobster11]

I've heard the all downstrokes philosophy on both guitar and bass, and I would agree, at slower tempos, there's a logic to that school of thought. But at faster tempos (including the one I would be playing this song at) doing so would be impractical. If you can do it, more power to you.

And in case you're wondering, I'm targeting playing this rhythm at 120bpm. Try counting this rhythm at that tempo. If you still think all downstrokes is doable at that speed, I'm willing to give it a shot.

I should clarify my previous post to make clear that Julie wasn't espousing downstrokes-only as a "philosophy" -- she was just describing to me what she ordinarily does, without suggesting that it was "best" or "right." She encouraged me to continue working on my alternate picking, but recommended that I also practice downstrokes-only (and upstrokes-only too). I think the "philosophy" is to be able to do all of these things so you can choose what works best in any particular situation.

Personally, I wouldn't be able to play the pattern you described at 120 bpm with downstrokes-only, and I don't see why you'd want to.

 

[elarue]

I should clarify my previous post to make clear that Julie wasn't espousing downstrokes-only as a "philosophy" -- she was just describing to me what she ordinarily does, without suggesting that it was "best" or "right." She encouraged me to continue working on my alternate picking, but recommended that I also practice downstrokes-only (and upstrokes-only too). I think the "philosophy" is to be able to do all of these things so you can choose what works best in any particular situation.

Personally, I wouldn't be able to play the pattern you described at 120 bpm with downstrokes-only, and I don't see why you'd want to.

You're right. I wouldn't. But if someone were to make a case for it, I'd be open to trying it anyway. ;-)

 

[Lobster11]

You're right. I wouldn't. But if someone were to make a case for it, I'd be open to trying it anyway. ;-)

I think the only "case" to be made for downstrokes-only would be that you should do it that way if that's the way you're feeling the groove. I'm sure that's why Julie often does it: I think she has a good bit of punk mentality in her beneath the proggy exterior. The all-downstrokes approach reflects the way she's feeling the line -- not just despite having to work twice as hard but because of it. But then, this isn't really making a "case" for it: It's really just a different way of saying "do what works for you" on any given tune.

BTW, this topic is of particular interest to me because the main reason I decided to learn to play with a pick (after many years playing exclusively fingerstyle) isn't so much about the "tone" and "attack" factors that most people cite (although those are important too): It's because I like the physical motion of playing with a pick, which really helps me feel certain grooves in a way that I don't get with fingers. So, whether I strictly alternate, or keep downstrokes on downbeats, or use only downstrokes depends on how I'm feeling the groove of that particular song at that particular time.

 

[Les Fret]

The first option (d du) is definitely the way to go. It is much more natural and better for your accents. Most guitar players use this pattern also.

 

[elarue]

The first option (d du) is definitely the way to go. It is much more natural and better for your accents. Most guitar players use this pattern also.

I'll try practicing that, then. Lately I've been practicing complete alternating because it felt more natural to my hand. I also decided to drop the extra 16th note from beat 4 because it felt easier to play and gave some more rhythmic variety to the passage.

 

[Bob_Ross]

All right. So it sounds like the "proper" solution is to try it both ways and see which one is easier, then keep practicing that one. Do I have it right?

I would say the "proper" [sic] solution is to try it both ways and see which one sounds better in the context of whatever tune you're trying to play.

Then it's on you as a musician to figure out how to execute that way easily/efficiently.

And also to recognize that it probably will not be the same for two different tunes.

 

[consectaneus]

The first option (d du) is definitely the way to go. It is much more natural and better for your accents. Most guitar players use this pattern also.

If you ever get into reading rhythms I think you will find it a big help if you train yourself to pick down on the down beats and up on the up beats. For me it all clicked when that happened. It was hard trying to keep that consistent until that upstroke on the "e" and "a" became felt. It really gets into you when you are syncopating 16th notes. Even if I'm doing a 1--"a" type figure I'm still feeling that up down on the "e" "&" though they are not played.

I worked this out in conjunction with Carol Kaye method.

I think this is what she meant when she named her album "Picking UP on the the E-string". That's where the funk is and there is little mistaking those up beat up stroke accents.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

This down stroke vs up stroke vs alternate picking question has always made me scratch my head a little. I've spent so much time the last decade obsessing over pick technique I always feel like I should have something to say on the subject of stroke direction but I never do. So just now I ran through the Prelude to the first Bach Solo Cello Suite which I've been playing for many years with all ups, then all downs, then strictly alternating. Although I could do all ways fairly easily none of them felt entirely comfortable. Then I played it without thinking about what stroke was going where and realized it was a mix of all three based purely on phrasing and articulation.

There's a moral in there somewhere.....

 

[Les Fret]

If you ever get into reading rhythms I think you will find it a big help if you train yourself to pick down on the down beats and up on the up beats. For me it all clicked when that happened. It was hard trying to keep that consistent until that upstroke on the "e" and "a" became felt. It really gets into you when you are syncopating 16th notes. Even if I'm doing a 1--"a" type figure I'm still feeling that up down on the "e" "&" though they are not played.
]

Yes exactly what I meant. You just have the keep your hand in in a constant up and down motion no matter what the rhythm is. When you skip a 16th you also skip that up or down stroke. Once you get this every rhythm is simple. This is what I tell all my guitar students.