A whole lot of travel with not much to show for it.

[Hawk620]

I NEVER played for free, except for an occasional real, bona fide benefit for someone or something I knew. Period.

Never would. No free beer, no 'exposure', 'live audition', nope.

Didja ever talk a plumber or electrician into coming to fix something and get him to do it for 'exposure'? It's an income, not a hobby, and professionals get paid.

Maybe I'm out of touch but this is where my head has been for a very long time.

Why would someone want to invest thousands of dollars in gear, spend hours in rehearsals, then spend more time and money driving to a gig, set up, perform, tear down, then drive home and feel it was OK to not be paid for it?

Free beer? I don't drink when I have to perform and many others I've played with don't either. Paying a band with a bar tab often ends to up with a band of drunken players who have trouble finishing the gig. Exposure? Exposure for what, more low pay or no pay gigs?

My point is this. Do you believe your band is good enough and professional enough to be well paid to perform? If so then set your price and ask to be paid. If not then spend more time wood shedding until you are and skip the freebie shows and bar gigs.

If the "hang" and camaraderie are all that good you can always plan a weekly get together just to play and work out new material, have some fun, drink a little beer, eat a little pizza, then go home and avoid all of the hard work involved with being a performing band.

 

[J Wilson]

Maybe I'm out of touch but this is where my head has been for a very long time.

Why would someone want to invest thousands of dollars in gear, spend hours in rehearsals, then spend more time and money driving to a gig, set up, perform, tear down, then drive home and feel it was OK to not be paid for it?

Free beer? I don't drink when I have to perform and many others I've played with don't either. Paying a band with a bar tab often ends to up with a band of drunken players who have trouble finishing the gig. Exposure? Exposure for what, more low pay or no pay gigs?

My point is this. Do you believe your band is good enough and professional enough to be well paid to perform? If so then set your price and ask to be paid. If not then spend more time wood shedding until you are and skip the freebie shows and bar gigs.

If the "hang" and camaraderie are all that good you can always plan a weekly get together just to play and work out new material, have some fun, drink a little beer, eat a little pizza, then go home and avoid all of the hard work involved with being a performing band.

Hawk, I used to work retail in music stores.

One gray, blustery day, my grizzled manager looked out at the gray skies over his lukewarm coffee, and mused out loud, " . . . if these customers ever figure out they've spent thousands of dollars to make 50 bucks a night . . . . we're screwed . . . . "

I often think I played for free, but was paid to endure a dark room full of drunks.

 

[pepj]

lol.. however, a good month might 'earn' you $1000 and assuming your day job pays the bills, that sort of spare money could justify $5k basses if you are working it a fair few years.

 

[mcnach]

Hawk, I used to work retail in music stores.

One gray, blustery day, my grizzled manager looked out at the gray skies over his lukewarm coffee, and mused out loud, " . . . if these customers ever figure out they've spent thousands of dollars to make 50 bucks a night . . . . we're screwed . . . . "

I often think I played for free, but was paid to endure a dark room full of drunks.

It's because for a lot of people it's a 'hobby'. A hobby that pays some money, but a hobby. People invest money in their hobbies, because it's an activity they enjoy.

Can you imagine what your financial investment would be if you get into any sort of motor racing? I know people who spend their weekends working on their cars, travelling, and do they make money? do they f... Yes, there are some financial incentives, but until you get to a serious level you're spending more than you're making.

I agree totally with the "I get paid to endure the drunks" line. I often say that the playing is free, what my fee is for is the hassle involved, with hassle covering: travel, setting and tearing up, waiting around twiddling my thumbs, dealing with annoying punters (most are fine, and I love those, but the drunks can be incredibly annoying and oblivious to it), and general shenanigans that come with the territory.
I also consider the payment based on a hassle/fun ratio. When the ratio is high, you'd better pay me well. When the ratio is low, I'm not paying as much attention to the money.

 

[Hawk620]

Hawk, I used to work retail in music stores.

One gray, blustery day, my grizzled manager looked out at the gray skies over his lukewarm coffee, and mused out loud, " . . . if these customers ever figure out they've spent thousands of dollars to make 50 bucks a night . . . . we're screwed . . . . "

I often think I played for free, but was paid to endure a dark room full of drunks.

LOL....there was a time when $50 for a gig was OK. But I was 15 years old in high school just learning to play. That's all the local musician's union could afford to spend for us to play 2 hours on a Sunday after noon at the local beach. We did get exposure. Mostly to the sun but eventually we worked up to $50 per man.

That was in the mid '60s. What's crazy to me is that clubs these days don't even want to pay that much. My son-in-laws band did a show last fall I went to. Two bands. They did the opening set. They got paid the princely sum of $100 total yet there was a $10 cover charge. What's wrong with that picture?

I realize we're well beyond the hey day of clubs filled with semi drunken "Boomers" who just wanted to drink, dance, and party but in those days there were seldom if ever any cover charges and we made at least $100 per man per night and usually did at least two nights in the same club. Sometime three.

Then the bottom fell out of that marketplace around here and it's never returned.

But come on. The guy who promotes shows like my son-in-law played is charging a $10 cover. Fills the place with 100 plus people, then clears the place out as much as he can before band #2 starts and begins to let their crowd in at another $10 per head. On top of that the club is serving food and drinks.

Someone is making a poopie load of money and sure ain't the musicians.

 

[Hawk620]

I agree totally with the "I get paid to endure the drunks" line. I often say that the playing is free, what my fee is for is the hassle involved, with hassle covering: travel, setting and tearing up, waiting around twiddling my thumbs, dealing with annoying punters (most are fine, and I love those, but the drunks can be incredibly annoying and oblivious to it), and general shenanigans that come with the territory.
I also consider the payment based on a hassle/fun ratio. When the ratio is high, you'd better pay me well. When the ratio is low, I'm not paying as much attention to the money.

I pretty much looked at in a similar manner in that we were actually paid liquor and beer salesmen who happened to play music and entertain. And despite some of the annoyances I enjoyed it. But I'm also a businessman. If we're putting butts in seats and those butts are eating and drinking and we can keep them there doing it all night long the club is making money and the band deserves a piece of it.

We're no different than the bartenders and waitstaff only they don't need to invest thousands of dollars in professional equipment to do their jobs. It's all provided for them. Weekend entertaining was never intended to be a profitable venture but IMHO it's not out of line to expect to at least cover your costs and a little extra for your time and effort. When you added it all up it was often less than minimum wage.

For me it all comes down to if people will pay in some form to come and watch you entertain and you're good at doing that you need to be fairly paid for it just like any other professional. My question is this. If bands refused to play for free would venues finally start paying them a fair amount again? I dunno but no one will ever know as long as bands aren't willing to stop doing it.

 

[JazznFunk]

Can you imagine what your financial investment would be if you get into any sort of motor racing? I know people who spend their weekends working on their cars, travelling, and do they make money? do they f... Yes, there are some financial incentives, but until you get to a serious level you're spending more than you're making.

Motor racing enthusiast here. Part-time karter as well. The difference is that there is no expectation or promise of pay whatsoever when people show up to autocross or amateur race weekends at all, and you're often paying to be out there for access to the facilities. We are there as participants, not providing a service - as musicians we are providing a service with our skills. If someone else is showing up and getting paid and others aren't.... see the issue? There are certainly designated competitive events where you do that, pay an entry fee, and there is the absolute expectation of a payout from the overall purse depending on where you finish. Often, but not always, there are sponsors helping to cover the expenses. Do we have sponsors as musicians? Not often. We need/expect to get paid for our time and services.

It's a difficult comparison to make, since playing music at a business comes with the understanding that the business is there to make money, and they are paying their staff and other expenses. Music is an expense, and we are contractors playing music to help THEM make money... so I expect to get paid.

As a competitive runner as well, I pay entry fees to run in races. I generally place well enough to place in my age group or overall and win prizes (or cash) which offset my entry fee. But I sometimes don't. Them's the breaks.... but I'm not a semi pro or elite out there getting paid to run. A professional runner doing a race where they aren't guaranteed pay - either by the race promoter or their sponsors - would essentially be playing a gig for 'exposure.'

 

[JazznFunk]

For me it all comes down to if people will pay in some form to come and watch you entertain and you're good at doing that you need to be fairly paid for it just like any other professional. My question is this. If bands refused to play for free would venues finally start paying them a fair amount again? I dunno but no one will ever know as long as bands aren't willing to stop doing it.

I can tell you this.... some people will play for free just to be heard and yet some bars/restaurants just decide it's less of a hassle and expense to just put on Sirius XM or something like that. If you care about actually being listened to, it's often better that those venues do that. Saves everyone the trouble. We have to decide if we are satisfied being subpar-paid (or unpaid) human jukeboxes while the venue makes the alcohol sales, or if our time is better used elsewhere where the musicians are actually appreciated.

 

[friskinator]

I don't care how good the band is or how much I like the other members, I refuse to load my gear, drive for over an hour, unload my gear and setup, play for a few hours, tear down and load up my gear, drive another hour plus, and unload my gear at home for a lousy $100 or less. I'm guessing the band's name is the Suckers?

I wouldn't do this if the gig was 5 minutes away.

 

[friskinator]

Maybe I'm out of touch but this is where my head has been for a very long time.

Why would someone want to invest thousands of dollars in gear, spend hours in rehearsals, then spend more time and money driving to a gig, set up, perform, tear down, then drive home and feel it was OK to not be paid for it?

Free beer? I don't drink when I have to perform and many others I've played with don't either. Paying a band with a bar tab often ends to up with a band of drunken players who have trouble finishing the gig. Exposure? Exposure for what, more low pay or no pay gigs?

My point is this. Do you believe your band is good enough and professional enough to be well paid to perform? If so then set your price and ask to be paid. If not then spend more time wood shedding until you are and skip the freebie shows and bar gigs.

If the "hang" and camaraderie are all that good you can always plan a weekly get together just to play and work out new material, have some fun, drink a little beer, eat a little pizza, then go home and avoid all of the hard work involved with being a performing band.

I know a guy who is trying to recruit a singer for his "dad band," and he's straight up telling any potential members that they will not get paid. You're right - they should just jam at someone's house or practice space for fun. But dudes like this need to brag to their friends that they have gigs lined up. It makes them feel good, but it damages the market for the rest of us who take it seriously.

 

[RavenousPoe]

If you aren't at a point in the band where you can give up your day job then things needed to be schedule with your full time gig in consideration. Now if you were in a position to bounce, then my suggestion would be either your 100% committed or walk away. Original gigs are play where someone gives you the opportunity to perform in front of people other than your best friend and people you work with. You have to look at every chance to branch out and build your fan bases. Its a hard road, but if you want it you have to take it, no one will give it to you. Good luck with you choice.

This is a tough one, and I think that you are completely right.

I might be ignorant, but this all sounds like par for the course for a new original metal band. little to no pay for most gigs, and expect to travel if you want to have gigs booked on a frequent basis. they are kind of not even gigs, they are "shows" for your band to try to gain a following and get into the metal community. So i'd say you need to adjust your expectations, or walk away if this type of thing is not fun for you.

If you want actually money and gigs closer to home, join a cover band

Par for the course based on what I've heard as well, and it's a tough pill to swallow either way. I've floated the idea of joining a cover band, but then I might be compromising on playing the music that I love; which to be fair this band is not my favorite subgenre of metal anyways. Tough to say if there would be a market for a NWOBHM cover band in my area.

 

[RavenousPoe]

Following up on this thread since it came to a head last night.

Tonight and tomorrow night are the aforementioned gigs. A few of the members agreed that the back to back gigs were too much, specifically the ones who lived furthest away and have to work tomorrow. Much to the lead guitarist and vocalist's chagrin, we cancelled the bar gig for tonight (about two and a half weeks ago) and are still playing the pinball arcade tomorrow (I got them mixed up earlier in the thread).

All seemed well until I asked in the band group chat if there would be PA support enough to run the bass through DI, or if there would be backline since on July 16th (I have receipts ) I asked the same question, and the vocalist who booked the gig said he would ask for me no problem. Turns out he didn't ask for me and literally every member except for the guitarist for band #1 started tearing me apart, saying that no one should have to ask the venue about that and I need to stop complaining about hauling my gear. Never once did I complain, I just asked to follow up on something that was mentioned over a month ago, looking for an answer two days before the show.

It became evident that no one was reading my responses, and they were just interested in accusing me of being lazy. This is the second time I have asked two days before a show after being promised we would find out, but it is the first time that I was treated with such ferocity.

So, this morning I texted the drummer of band #2 that this would be my last gig with them, and after that I am done. I wouldn't even play this pinball arcade gig had he not performed a similar favor for me before, even though he was one of those who jumped on the bandwagon of animosity.

 

[pepj]

How have they taken your resignation?

 

[RavenousPoe]

How have they taken your resignation?

The drummer seems to have taken it well. He said "No worries! You're welcome to let the rest of the guys know at the show." and I intend to do that, probably after we play so tension isn't any higher than it needs to be.

 

[Pocket Dave]

Following up on this thread since it came to a head last night.

Tonight and tomorrow night are the aforementioned gigs. A few of the members agreed that the back to back gigs were too much, specifically the ones who lived furthest away and have to work tomorrow. Much to the lead guitarist and vocalist's chagrin, we cancelled the bar gig for tonight (about two and a half weeks ago) and are still playing the pinball arcade tomorrow (I got them mixed up earlier in the thread).

All seemed well until I asked in the band group chat if there would be PA support enough to run the bass through DI, or if there would be backline since on July 16th (I have receipts ) I asked the same question, and the vocalist who booked the gig said he would ask for me no problem. Turns out he didn't ask for me and literally every member except for the guitarist for band #1 started tearing me apart, saying that no one should have to ask the venue about that and I need to stop complaining about hauling my gear. Never once did I complain, I just asked to follow up on something that was mentioned over a month ago, looking for an answer two days before the show.

It became evident that no one was reading my responses, and they were just interested in accusing me of being lazy. This is the second time I have asked two days before a show after being promised we would find out, but it is the first time that I was treated with such ferocity.

So, this morning I texted the drummer of band #2 that this would be my last gig with them, and after that I am done. I wouldn't even play this pinball arcade gig had he not performed a similar favor for me before, even though he was one of those who jumped on the bandwagon of animosity.

Sounds like there's a disconnect - doesn't really matter at this point - there's probably been resentment building on both sides.

Guessing the others are more emotionally invested, where you may have a more practical approach. Nothing wrong with either view, though they can be incompatible if there's little understanding, empathy or emotional maturity.

Meanwhile, next band, you might just reply-all to email chains, saying "thanks for offering to check on backline - any word?" Being respectful sometimes starts with an acknowledgement, and can go a looooong way toward avoiding resentments.

 

[RavenousPoe]

Sounds like there's a disconnect - doesn't really matter at this point - there's probably been resentment building on both sides.

Guessing the others are more emotionally invested, where you may have a more practical approach. Nothing wrong with either view, though they can be incompatible if there's little understanding, empathy or emotional maturity.

Meanwhile, next band, you might just reply-all to email chains, saying "thanks for offering to check on backline - any word?" Being respectful sometimes starts with an acknowledgement, and can go a looooong way toward avoiding resentments.

I totally agree with this. The lack of follow-through is an issue that I have brought up at meets before, and I was assured it would be addressed. This was all done over text, and although I did cite the original message where the vocalist offered to check. The response I got was, "Bring your gear be prepared end of story" from the lead guitarist.

I also think you're right about the resentment building. The band feels very different now than it did early this year.

 

[pepj]

I have two fest dates this weekend. I'm taking my gear because it will loaded from the night before, but if that wasn't the case, I'd appreciate someone letting me know so I may decide whether to carry it.
With a full stage set up, I may just decide to run a TH DI..or the DI from a Eich Class D.

But a bit of consideration and thought by others goes a long way.
Must say, doesn't sound like your bandmates care much. Pretty poor, imv and can't blame you for reconsidering whether to work with them.

 

[newwavefrank]

Motor racing enthusiast here. Part-time karter as well. The difference is that there is no expectation or promise of pay whatsoever when people show up to autocross or amateur race weekends at all, and you're often paying to be out there for access to the facilities. We are there as participants, not providing a service - as musicians we are providing a service with our skills.

In a cover band I would mostly agree. An original metal band playing out if town? I'm not sure how often the band is actually adding any value to the business. I could even make the argument that a bad band playing songs no one knows could actually hurt business. ( I am not saying anything about the OP's band) If you aren't bring in paying customers, you need to keep people there longer than they would have otherwise stayed of you arguably bring no value to the business. New bands need places to play in order to hone their craft. It could be argued that many times the band benefits more than the establishment for these types of gigs. I could be wrong. I have not played an original song in 40 years, but I do know something about running a business, and about running a cover band.

 

[RavenousPoe]

I have two fest dates this weekend. I'm taking my gear because it will loaded from the night before, but if that wasn't the case, I'd appreciate someone letting me know so I may decide whether to carry it.
With a full stage set up, I may just decide to run a TH DI..or the DI from a Eich Class D.

But a bit of consideration and thought by others goes a long way.
Must say, doesn't sound like your bandmates care much. Pretty poor, imv and can't blame you for reconsidering whether to work with them.

I appreciate your sentiment.

I tried to properly convey to them that I have no problem bringing my amp, and I've brought it to most of the shows we've played up to this point. It feels to me that they took it as a sign of laziness and lack of dedication instead of what it is. Just the option and consideration would have been nice, like you said.
It's just bizarre, really, but thankfully after tomorrow I won't need to worry about it.

 

[51PRI]

The drummer seems to have taken it well. He said "No worries! You're welcome to let the rest of the guys know at the show." and I intend to do that, probably after we play so tension isn't any higher than it needs to be.

Tension can add excitement to the show. Tell them you're quitting right before you go onstage (after you set up). Say something like "this is my last show, guys, let's make it a good one" and wink! I guarantee you will have an interesting set.

... I did cite the original message where the vocalist offered to check. The response I got was, "Bring your gear be prepared end of story" from the lead guitarist...

What's confusing about that?