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acme B2 vs GK 115MB, Question:

An amp like the GKMB800 and two 8ohm B210's would totally fix your issue and still give you that super bass extended, fat, even, smooth Acme tone. One way or the other, that head has to go with that particular cab (or at least you need an external Hi Pass Filter like the FDECK III to eliminate that under 30hz nastiness coming out of that head.

FWIW, I happen to own a GK MB800 and a pair of 8-ohm Acme Full Range 1x12s (not the B2s, but in the same sonic ball park). I've run them only at lower volume thus far, so potential hyperextension of the woofers has not been an issue.

When I start running them at higher volume, it'll be a different story. I don't happen to own an FDECK III high-pass filter (though it would be nice to get one). But I do own an sfx Micro Thumpinator. As long as I've got that in the signal chain at all times, maybe use a touch of compression/limiting, and don't go crazy on the sub bass, I figure I ought to be able to crank it! :bassist:

MM
 
FWIW, I happen to own a GK MB800 and a pair of 8-ohm Acme Full Range 1x12s (not the B2s, but in the same sonic ball park). I've run them only at lower volume thus far, so potential hyperextension of the woofers has not been an issue.

When I start running them at higher volume, it'll be a different story. I don't happen to own an FDECK III high-pass filter (though it would be nice to get one). But I do own an sfx Micro Thumpinator. As long as I've got that in the signal chain at all times, maybe use a touch of compression/limiting, and don't go crazy on the sub bass, I figure I ought to be able to crank it! :bassist:

MM

That should sound great! Even though the MB800 extends pretty low, it is NOTHING like that massive sub-bass extension of the old SWR SM400. That being said, yeah, an external Hi Pass is a good idea with these cabs and heads with lots of low end meat like that particular GK. Absolutely essential with heads with lots of sub bass (SWR, the Mesa M6/M9) and the Acme's.
 
I do find myself always mindful of that low bass in the SM400. If I could get by that, I'd be happier with it I think... I do like the sound of it otherwise.

Yeah, the adjustable FDECK III is a nice solution to that issue. Set it to the minimum 35hz (I think... maybe 30, can't remember), and you will hear very little difference but you will see that speaker pistoning cut in half with that head.

There are no controls on the SM400 that really help with this, unfortunately. The idea of making such a full range bass amp falls into my category of 'a bad idea executed beautifully' by SWR.:D
 
I'm trying to understand where all this "sub-bass" signal is coming from.
WIKI defines sub-bass as frequencies below 60 Hz. Odd, but take it at face value.

Half the audience here believes an electric bass can't produce anything below the 2nd harmonic.
I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I'd like to understand where this very low frequency info is generated.
I doubt the SWR is generating something not in the signal chain... it would be broken if that is the case.

Is thumb-on-string motion responsible for VLF generation?
Also, perhaps Francis will post the rolloff frequency for his HPF at the lowest setting.
Does it start at 35 Hz, or -3dB at 35 Hz, or something else?
Just curious.
 
Now a question: I have a Bag End 18 loaded with a JBL E-155-4 ohm driver. If I ran 2 separate amps, and sent all the lows up to around 150Hz to the Bag End/JBL, and everything else to the B210, would I be doing something useless?

IMO yes. The whole beauty of an Acme cabinet IS the way it handles the lows. Quite possibly better and more accurately than a JBL sub.
 
With regard to your mid driver problem, make sure that the L-Pads on the back panel are turned up and not off.

I own two of each Series one and Two. The Series one pair are my go to cabinets. In a vertical stack the pair do everything I need. To my ear, all of my B2s sound the same so if you want a second cabinet don't sweat the actual Series number.
 
I'm trying to understand where all this "sub-bass" signal is coming from...

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but....
I doubt the SWR is generating something not in the signal chain... it would be broken if that is the case.

I do remember pistoning the 8s in a Henry the 8x8 like crazy with an SM400 once, but I've been able to avoid that pretty well now (except on the 15 in a Triad)... anyway, regarding bgavin's quote above, if I have the Bass shelving eq knob set 'flat', why would that generate anything? I'm not boosting that freq, even if it does exist. And I'm really staying away from that realm in the rest of the eq. Is it a default thing that you're pushing super-lows through the circuit and out to a speaker?

With regard to your mid driver problem, make sure that the L-Pads on the back panel are turned up and not off.

I own two of each Series one and Two. The Series one pair are my go to cabinets. In a vertical stack the pair do everything I need. To my ear, all of my B2s sound the same so if you want a second cabinet don't sweat the actual Series number.

Pads are/were on, up about 2/3rds or so. I think there's a problem with the crossover, as the mid driver seems ok, as far as I can tell.

And I was wondering that about the series #s, if they'd be an issue. Thanks for posting that bit there.
 
I'm trying to understand where all this "sub-bass" signal is coming from.

WIKI defines sub-bass as frequencies below 60 Hz. Odd, but take it at face value.



Half the audience here believes an electric bass can't produce anything below the 2nd harmonic.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I'd like to understand where this very low frequency info is generated.

I doubt the SWR is generating something not in the signal chain... it would be broken if that is the case.



Is thumb-on-string motion responsible for VLF generation?

Also, perhaps Francis will post the rolloff frequency for his HPF at the lowest setting.

Does it start at 35 Hz, or -3dB at 35 Hz, or something else?

Just curious.


Sub bass is always an issue. Most bass amps have hi passing that removes it. The SM 400 does not. Even a high note on the G string has harmonics that extend way down low.

If you have spent any time with the SM400, it would be pretty obvious. Those speakers will piston like heck!

Quite unusual though with integrated bass heads. And most pa amps have adjusted hi pass filters that start around 50 hz or so.
 
Unless the SWR is broken, it isn't generating spurious signal on its own.
It comes from somewhere, probably VLF from string movement over the pickups.

I have no experience measuring sub-harmonics, so can't comment.
What I can really see causing piston action, is moving the strings about over the pickup.
I always thumb-damp my B-string whenever I'm not playing that string.
I can see where motion would induce VLF signal.

Link Removed
This preamp evidently does not have the reputed rolloff, as it is only down -5dB at 12 Hz.
On the flip side, my Sansamps are reputed to have a steep rolloff from 80 Hz, which I have not yet measured.

My various PLX have a 30/50 Hz filter which is useful, but my new Prolite2 does not.
Looking at the FDECK HPF, I see it has a 12db/octave slope with the lowest corner at 35 Hz.
Whenever I play at high power, it is with the PLX and filters engaged.
My T39 unloads below 42 Hz, and the T48 around 35 Hz, so I keep the filters in place.
 
Unless the SWR is broken, it isn't generating spurious signal on its own.
It comes from somewhere, probably VLF from string movement over the pickups.

I have no experience measuring sub-harmonics, so can't comment.
What I can really see causing piston action, is moving the strings about over the pickup.
I always thumb-damp my B-string whenever I'm not playing that string.
I can see where motion would induce VLF signal.

Link Removed
This preamp evidently does not have the reputed rolloff, as it is only down -5dB at 12 Hz.
On the flip side, my Sansamps are reputed to have a steep rolloff from 80 Hz, which I have not yet measured.

My various PLX have a 30/50 Hz filter which is useful, but my new Prolite2 does not.
Looking at the FDECK HPF, I see it has a 12db/octave slope with the lowest corner at 35 Hz.
Whenever I play at high power, it is with the PLX and filters engaged.
My T39 unloads below 42 Hz, and the T48 around 35 Hz, so I keep the filters in place.

Again, this has nothing to do with there being 'something wrong' with the SM400. It is what it is.

This is not a 'preamp' issue, and measuring the preamp's frequency response coming out of the effects out or whatever will tell you nothing.

Per your example, think of an integrated bass amp as just a preamp combined with a power amp. Just like your PA type power amps having low end control (typically a limited low pass filter control with a couple fixed settings), the amplifier sections of integrated amps have various low end control circuits (hi passing and low end voicing that is not 'user adjustable' in most cases).

The SM400 is somewhat unusual in that it produces lots of deep, sub-bass low end. This was actually part of its 'marketing spec' also... full 20hz to 20K response out of the entire system. This again was not a very good idea since the vast majority of speaker cabs can't use much under 40hz. Many of us used an external hi pass set at around 35 or 40 hz back in the day with that head. Worked nicely to increase the efficiency/volume of the rig for sure.

Where you REALLY get into trouble (IMO and quite a bit of IME) is using this head with a cab that actually has high sensitivity way down low, like the Acme. At even moderate volumes, that is a wonderful formula for cone creasing, and also low sensitivity of the entire system, since SO much energy is used to create that super low, 30hz and under type output.

Of course, the sub bass comes originally from the instrument. There are some unique on-board preamps like the preamp that Pete Skjold uses that have adjustable hi passing (cool idea.... keeps those front of house guys from going nuts with the bass tone in the subs). Otherwise, with an amp with too much low end extension, an external hi pass like the FDECK works quite well.

The FDECKIII has a fixed 35hz 12db per octave roll-off that is not adjustable, and then an additional 12db per octave adjustable roll-off, from 35 hz (so you can have a 24db per octave roll-off at 35 hz) all the way up to 120hz or so (i.e., fridge emulation or whatever).

The Shuttle Max heads had a pretty cool 'low end filter' that was basically an adjustable hi pass filter combined with low end boost (since the ear hears those lower frequencies less efficiently). I believe its range was from 36hz when off to 32 hz when fully engaged. LOTS of low end within that range!
 
Just FYI, here is an old marketing blurb from an SWR website that is still active, explaining their approach to the super low hi passing they use compared to most other heads. Again, sounds good on paper until you realize that virtually no speaker cab can actually reproduce those frequencies at any significant volume:

This was on their FAQ page addressing a question of why SWR heads (especially the early models) seemed very 'soft per watt' to many.


****
Here's the deal: It takes more power—a lot more power—to drive low frequencies than it does to drive high frequencies. When the amplifier specs are calculated, a commonly used test frequency is 1kHz (1,000 cycles per second). This means that the complete waveform travels 1,000 times in a second, producing a relatively high frequency. If an amplifier can deliver 500 watts at 1kHz, then advertising this amp as a 500-watt amp is not a false statement. The real question is about how many watts it does delivers at full bandwidth, or, in other words, all of the frequencies between 20 and 20,000 cycles (note: all SWR amplifiers deliver full 20 Hz to 20 kHz bandwidth). The fundamental frequency of the low "E" on a bass guitar is around 41.3 Hz. This is a large waveform, and it requires a substantial amount of power to amplify it at high volumes. When you ask an amplifier to reproduce lower frequencies, the amplifier becomes less efficient and therefore produces fewer watts. Realistically, an amplifier should be rated at several different frequencies in order to give an accurate representation of its power-producing capabilities.

An amplifier manufacturer will often put a filter on the amp that doesn't allow it to reproduce frequencies below a certain point. This typically makes the device more efficient and therefore capable of producing a higher wattage specification. In the case of a bass amplifier, if the filter was set at, for example, 20 cycles, then a 30-cycle (low "B" on a five-string bass) fundamental frequency could be reproduced. If the filter was set at 40 cycles, the low "B" fundamental could not be accurately reproduced, although the first harmonic at 60 cycles would sound OK. By placing a "high pass" filter on an amplifier, a manufacturer can publish higher wattage specifications that in reality are misleading because the frequencies the amp can reproduce fall short of the range of the intended purpose.
 
Kjung, if I were to use a High Pass filter, would I use it at the send/return, or further down the chain toward the power section (??)? If this low-signal generation is due to the power amp, is that to say the power amp is the source of these lows? Or are they provoked by the instrument or pre amp section- so that use of the High Pass filter would be inserted early in the chain- like at the input?