Plenty of responses, but no replies from the original poster.
No sense arguing amongst ourselves, right?
No sense arguing amongst ourselves, right?
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Acoustic Basses?
- Thread starter Charlie Brown
- Start date
True, but that has never stopped us before, has it?
This is sound reasoning so far as it goes, but I think it is a bit oversimplified. It is not at all hard to document that the inspiration for the Earthwood Bass is the guitarron, and that the EB in turn inspired the design of Harry Fleishman's first-generation Compact Acoustic Bass. The Guild B50 and B30 ABGs also are early entries. I would agree that most current commercially produced ABGs are inspired by flat-top
acoustic guitars, but more from the interests of cost-cutting. Take the largest-bodied six-string in your product line and stick a bass neck on it and . . . voila! an acoustic bass guitar.
Of course, no discussion of this type would be complete without mentioning the bassoguitar.
[/QUOTE]3.) I never asserted that ABG's sound like uprights. That's not the tone that most people are going for with an ABG, hence why they have copper strings. There certainly are some people who use them as a more portable alternative to an upright. These people usually use tapewound strings and fretless fingerboards. But, again they are a very specific subset.
[/QUOTE]
Here is where the biramous bifurcation sets in. In my experience most ABGs have copper strings because that's how they are shipped from the factory. Folks who are after a guitar sound keep them on; those preferring more of a DB sound opt for either flats or tapes. So we have two camps. Unless folks with multiple ABGs load them to cover all the string types.
In this instance I don't think we have a sufficient sample to assess what "most people are going for."
My acoustic bass is probably the bass I play the most. A Breedlove Atlas Solo Fretless. It's constantly on my lap when I'm practicing. It's got a side sound hole and is the only instrument that I own that I listen to, rather than play - if you know what I mean.
I restrung it with Fender Tapewounds (had to bore out the bridge a little, but God hates a coward) and it's been a favorite since. I use it live when our stage is too small for my EUB, but that's only a handful of times a year.
Our band does an occasional acoustic set, and I fits in beautifully then, but like all ABGs, it needs amplification. When I'm playing with friends around a campfire, it's plugged into my Ampeg BA108 for support.
I restrung it with Fender Tapewounds (had to bore out the bridge a little, but God hates a coward) and it's been a favorite since. I use it live when our stage is too small for my EUB, but that's only a handful of times a year.
Our band does an occasional acoustic set, and I fits in beautifully then, but like all ABGs, it needs amplification. When I'm playing with friends around a campfire, it's plugged into my Ampeg BA108 for support.
You're right. Not much is correct, but an exception (imho) is the Tacoma Thunderchief
. But then, not much of anything else. For their small size, though, Martins are reasonably loud, too.
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I have been wanting to get an acoustic for quite some time now. But have noticed in all the acousitc jams I have seen (and as others have said) I will probably go with some type of amplification.. So I think I am going to head in this direction:
I really wasn't sure how much Thunderchiefs can be found for, under $1K, but getting close, no? Haven't seen one for sale in a while.You're right. Not much is correct, but an exception (imho) is the Tacoma Thunderchief
Edit: There's one on ebay and reverb now, but asking price is just under $3500. Ouch.
Man! Ouch is right. Gonna have to take a look-see. Have never heard of that kind of number on any Thunderchief.
I also haven't seen any for sale for a while, not that I keep daily tabs on the classifieds or evilbay, though. Mostly under a Grand, I think, yes. Maybe very close w/shipping. All I know is that I'd need at least that for my minty Thunderchief w/the Fishman Prefix Plus
.
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I was going to ask about those hole blockers... Do they really work?
I like the sound of my Ibanez AEB10, but find feedback issues if I'm too close to my amp - which it is sometimes hard not to be
Do they still sound acoustic with the sound hole blocked?
This is the main culprit. "sound acoustic". What is "sound acoustic" to you? I've never ever head any ABG sounding like any acoustic bass, i e an upright full scale bass. If "sound acoustic" means that it will sound exactly the same as unplugged, it probably will sound better. Because of the low frequencies getting heard. But so it does without the hole blocker. Which makes me wonder why they made them with any sound holes at all in the first place.
Then the U-bass is a much better bet, if you want an upright sound. Some people say that ANYTHING plugged in doesn't sound acoustic at all. It's electric by default. Not me though. You do find feedback issues with your Ibanez AEB10. Which must mean you have to turn it up to get heard anyway don't you? The hole blockers may or may not help, it's a wild guess, and a hit or miss. They may ONLY and ONLY buck the feedback that is present at the exact same frequency as the bodys total own resonance, which is always at a certain frequency. And buck it by 3-4 db (which- indeed - may be just enough) but there sure will be other frequencies above and below that will still remain problematic.
No to speak of the dreaded dead spots. As with any ABG, there will be more dead spots occuring, and more frequent LIVE spots that will occur along the neck. All of a sudden fretted notes just disappears, while, the note next to it will start to howl and cause feedback. I think an U-bass or even the Ashbory bass (if they're still made) would be a better bet, in just mimicking any upright bass plugged in, at least better than any ABG.
------ replies to other posts in general -----
H, BTW I've tried, and sold in our music shop SEVERAL Earthwood basses way back in the early 80's (I loathed them even back them). But you really have to ramp it up even more, before it comes close to be even passable, or reasonably decent, acoustically, like this:
Or if you're tall like late Peter Steele of Type O'Negative, any real upright bass would provide no challenge at all (and yes, now we're talking acoustic, unplugged, here)!
From Wikipedia, both on Guitarrón, and Acoustic Bass Guitar with reference to link:
"Ball notes that "...the closest thing to an acoustic bass was the Mexican guitarron...in mariachi bands, so I bought one down in Invalid Link Removed and tinkered with it."[1]"
First ones to trade the upright for solid body instruments exclusively. To a serious uproar by the jazz purists. More for portability and ergonomics. And TONE. I know that Citron made an ABG with piezo that Steve plays these days. As for endorsements and signature models, well let's see 5 years down the road from now, when his deal has (may have) expired. He must have some income as well, and thought this one was one road to pursue. It's too crowded elsewhere in solid body basses signature models. I don't know of anyone who've left their company endorsements behind them after a while anyway.
I never said this myself either. But to some people - like the aformentioned "do they still sound acoustic" is very elusive, and people usually don't know - either - what they really mean with that "acoustic". Because the only instrument they've heard is the acoustic upright bass. Bet that very few, if any, have heard the Guitarrón at all. But I bet there are quite a few people who actually things that an ABG is the way an acoustic bass is supposed to sound. ACOUSTICALLY AND NOT PLUGGED IN! And I think there's not any more people going for this or that tone, than the tapewound fretless "specific subset" of people that you describe. I don't find it troublesome to hear an acoustic upright in any acoustic setting at all, say some bluegrass bands (Del McCoury et al) or in any other setting. That's the sound of an acoustic bass, to me. The sound of a plugged in ABG isn't acoustic in any way to me. No matter what it sounds like, I prefer the sound timbre of any solid body electric bass, in any setting over that one. Granted, you can experiment with flatwound, black nylon strings and so on on that one too, but nevertheless. British film music maker Michael Nyman uses electric bass exclusively to his other string quartet completely acoustic band. Not even upright. It just "doesn't cut it" he said once in an interview.
Well, all those users of Ashbory (solid body with JUST a piezo pickup) and numerous reviews might think otherwise. Not to say totally the opposite. Not to say about the solid body versions of the U-bass. However, we are speaking about the upright bass as a reference for "acoustic" sound. Now, how people will compare any ABG sound to something other acoustic, when upright was the only one existed before beats me. A catch 22 coming up doesn't it?
No, if you want to sound like an acoustic bass still plugged in, such things as U-bass which comes in different shapes, both with acoustic bodies, and solid bodies, and the already mentioned Ashbory bass will provide a more similar tone to any acoustic upright bass, than ever any ABG. The Guitarrón only if you want to just keep it acoustic. I would imagine any Guitarrón plugged in would be even more prone to howl and feedback. The U-bass with its small Ukulele body will provide absolutely no bass at all, but when plugged in, will be not that prone to feedback in the bass range as other larger bodies would.
There's supposed to be plugged in any way. While the acoustic guitar keeps it very well down around the low 80 Hz open E-string, especially Gibson Jumbo like guitars, EQUALLY good acoustically or plugged in, it isn't so with ABGs. Even Earthwood. All ABG's I know of has piezo (or undersaddle) pickups. And no one projects their lowest note E-note as well acoustically, as they do when plugged in. Period.
No, but still the OP was on a budget. That others around here can accept and gladly pay 3500 USD for an used Earthwood, just because they are spolied brats, and too lazy to bring out an amp for practice purposes only beats me. Since more than one have stated, that there really exists loud ABGs but they are both huge and expensive, I don't really see that point either, within the scope of this thread. Buying a huge, cumbersome and expensive one just to bring out for practicing...this is definitely not the OPs intention. not everyone can afford this luxory. As I counter your description of a "specific subset" of people, well, that is just a very specific subset of people. And then some.
I just want the OP to think twice about it, otherwise it's just one side - the one's who likes them - that are allowed to come across. So what's the point of having any forum at all then, if it's like that? Now, the OP has read our rants, ramblings and let it over to him to decide, and let him think twice about it, what to buy or not.
This is the main culprit. "sound acoustic". What is "sound acoustic" to you? I've never ever head any ABG sounding like any acoustic bass, i e an upright full scale bass. If "sound acoustic" means that it will sound exactly the same as unplugged, it probably will sound better. Because of the low frequencies getting heard. But so it does without the hole blocker. Which makes me wonder why they made them with any sound holes at all in the first place.
Then the U-bass is a much better bet, if you want an upright sound. Some people say that ANYTHING plugged in doesn't sound acoustic at all. It's electric by default. Not me though. You do find feedback issues with your Ibanez AEB10. Which must mean you have to turn it up to get heard anyway don't you? The hole blockers may or may not help, it's a wild guess, and a hit or miss. They may ONLY and ONLY buck the feedback that is present at the exact same frequency as the bodys total own resonance, which is always at a certain frequency. And buck it by 3-4 db (which- indeed - may be just enough) but there sure will be other frequencies above and below that will still remain problematic.
No to speak of the dreaded dead spots. As with any ABG, there will be more dead spots occuring, and more frequent LIVE spots that will occur along the neck. All of a sudden fretted notes just disappears, while, the note next to it will start to howl and cause feedback. I think an U-bass or even the Ashbory bass (if they're still made) would be a better bet, in just mimicking any upright bass plugged in, at least better than any ABG.
------ replies to other posts in general -----
H, BTW I've tried, and sold in our music shop SEVERAL Earthwood basses way back in the early 80's (I loathed them even back them). But you really have to ramp it up even more, before it comes close to be even passable, or reasonably decent, acoustically, like this:
Or if you're tall like late Peter Steele of Type O'Negative, any real upright bass would provide no challenge at all (and yes, now we're talking acoustic, unplugged, here)!
Hi Honch,
Just to be clear, I mean is the sound tone the same or very similar to how the ABG performs without amplification, using the open sound hole. I am not trying to pretend it us an upright, they are an avenue I will explore at another time... Probably after an Ashbory or Ubass diversion.
I like the sound of the ABG on certain songs and hope to keep that sound in an amplified setting.
Well, you certainly keep doing that. Over and over and over again. But that's a totally different family of instruments. IMO those who buy ABGs expecting them to sound like uprights are, besides delusional, extremely few. (This is no stab at whoever goes for *kind of* that tone by using tapewounds or flats or mutes or upright technique and whatnot.) When I bought mine, I expected it to sound like a big acoustic guitar tuned an octave lower. Guess what? It does. And I doubt I'm alone in this. People may expect them to sound louder, but I doubt a significant part of buyers have the double bass in mind when they become interested in ABGs (other than "I can't play it" or "No way I wanna carry one around"). It's just not a factor; not everyone's concept of bass guitar in acoustic contexts revolve around the doghouse.
Now you may or may not agree on the following but this is my story and I'm sticking to it:
-ABGs are quiet, you need to plug it in to be heard, otherwise it's just for noodling on the couch or practicing with one or two other instruments tops, and there's nothing wrong with that. YMMV;
-where I live, acoustic guitarists at acoustic gigs are plugged in as well. Every friggin' time;
-just like Martins sound different from Strats, ABGs sound different from electrics. Because piezo vs. mag, because hollow body, because bronze or nylon-core strings if there. Now, piezo bridge solid vs. ABG? I don't own an example of the former but I can venture a guess: piezo pickups are wider range than magnetics, so they do sound inherently acoustic-y. But exactly the same? Does a hollow body not contribute to tone? Wow, that's a little radical even from a "wood doesn't matter" viewpoint. I'll defer to owners of both types, or of both Kala hollows and solids, or also piezo-equipped electrics and normal acoustics.
To sum it up, if one feels like bringing an ABG to an acoustic gig because to him/her there's a meaningful difference in tones that bass can produce vs. how an electric sounds (and/or because the acoustic looks the part in acoustic gigs, and there's also nothing wrong with that), the "might as well bring a slab if you're gonna plug in anyway" crowd can do exactly that on their own gigs and spare their preaching for those who give a darn.
Oh, the part where you downplayed Swallow's use of his signature model ABG was hysterical, thanks for that. Might wanna add blackmail or other forms of coercion on the manufacturer's part as possible explanations for his relapse in hollow addiction...
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We should maybe take a look at another forum, then, in that case, the acoustic guitar forum from 2012. Nothing much has happened since then, that is a game changer.
Acoustic guitar makers that make good acoustic basses - The Acoustic Guitar Forum
I am not alone, I will namedrop the nicks from there to which I agree with, and consider myself definitely not alone. Those people have tried the lot, which I haven't but they still have this verdict the same as mine. The nicks ebick, Matt Mustapick.. and more, among the lines of:
Period. I am not alone, and I hope we've left MORE THAN ENOUGH caveat information and disclaimers to the OP for being able to judge if he's going to make the plunge or not. He's on a budget you know. And thinking that Emerald would've done it with its graphite or molded bodies think again:
C'mon really, is that a put on or what? Someone pulling one on us?
It's supposedly recorded completely acoustic and...well it tries to sound like an upright, but how well can you hear the lowest notes? Even in your domestic hi-fi equipment (not laptop speakers of course). You only hear the fills he's doing when he goes way up. It's even a 6 string with ... fanned frets, or multiscale since it is a fretless. As I said in an earlier post, and still wows by it, IT IS ONLY FOR LOOKS moreso than anything else.
And BTW we have been through this already in here. On the following thread, I have not contributed to it in any way, because they all already said and posted what I thought too. See if you can spot anyone of my posts in there:
Very Large Acoustic Bass Guitar for Jam Sessions | TalkBass.com
Acoustic guitar makers that make good acoustic basses - The Acoustic Guitar Forum
I am not alone, I will namedrop the nicks from there to which I agree with, and consider myself definitely not alone. Those people have tried the lot, which I haven't but they still have this verdict the same as mine. The nicks ebick, Matt Mustapick.. and more, among the lines of:
- Howard Emerson (especially "they won't hold a candle to a well made guitarron"),
- Wade Hampton ("they're not truly effective in a wide range of musical settings unless they're plugged into an amp.."),
- Roses Dad ("I wish I could recover the money I have spent on various acoustic guitar basses. Tried them all, at least the ones commonly produced. In a word, Nope. No projection, no volume (not to be confused with projection), and, to my ear, crappy sounding").
- Jeff Scott ("if you have to plug in anyway, why not get one designed to do the job properly?")
Period. I am not alone, and I hope we've left MORE THAN ENOUGH caveat information and disclaimers to the OP for being able to judge if he's going to make the plunge or not. He's on a budget you know. And thinking that Emerald would've done it with its graphite or molded bodies think again:
C'mon really, is that a put on or what? Someone pulling one on us?
It's supposedly recorded completely acoustic and...well it tries to sound like an upright, but how well can you hear the lowest notes? Even in your domestic hi-fi equipment (not laptop speakers of course). You only hear the fills he's doing when he goes way up. It's even a 6 string with ... fanned frets, or multiscale since it is a fretless. As I said in an earlier post, and still wows by it, IT IS ONLY FOR LOOKS moreso than anything else.
And BTW we have been through this already in here. On the following thread, I have not contributed to it in any way, because they all already said and posted what I thought too. See if you can spot anyone of my posts in there:
Very Large Acoustic Bass Guitar for Jam Sessions | TalkBass.com
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The only thing that would perhaps mitigate the acoustic projestion of the lowest notes, is if there was some amplification built in and used the top as a speaker. Say a two 9 v batteries that - instead of picking up the strings through a piezo - would actually vibrate the top EVEN more, at just selected low frequencies. That would act like a membrane speaker, than needs just a little help. But stayed inactive at higher frequencies. Maybe. At a stretch. Would think that it would cause a catch 22 there too. Feedback, both picking up and amplifying the same "membrane".
