Active DI for Active Bass??

[KJung]

allright... I get it. Thanks a lot. I'm interested on the subject .

And amp DI-outs? are they considered active or passive? Or does it differ depending on the amp?

I had someone tell me that these Radials passive ones have better signal quality than the active ones (ebs, countryman, tone hammer), which in turn would be better than the amp DI-outs... Seems like over-generalization to me now that I have learned the above .

As far as I know, virtually all amp DI's are in some ways 'buffered' (if I'm using that term correctly), even in pre EQ mode, so this all becomes a moot point (i.e., they act similarly to 'active DI's).

Regarding quality, for most, the DI coming out of the back of an amp is perfectly acceptable for live performance, and very few would notice the 'improvement' of a higher end DI like the JDI or Countryman. The only time I use my JDI is when I'm in a situation with no backline, which is rare. IF you want a lot of color to your tone going into the board, there are units like the Avalon U5, the Reddi, etc., etc. that are designed to provide various tonal impacts (i.e., tube warmth, set EQ curves, etc.), so that is a little bit of a different thing. Also, studio work, where everything is 'under the microscope', is a completely different thing.

If you are one, like me, who sends a pure signal to the board (i.e., I don't use effects or compression or any of that stuff, and prefer a rig that is at least somewhat 'PA' like on stage... i.e., full range with tweeter), then sending a pre EQ DI send from a reasonable quality amp (Genz, Markbass, GK, Eden, etc., etc.) should work beautifully.

In my situation, I typically ask the sound professional if he would mind using a pre EQ signal from my head (making sure I also mention that if there is a problem, I'm glad to use whatever he/she provides). In 30 years, I've NEVER had an issue. As soon as they hear 'pre EQ', they at least know that you are aware of some of the issues with DI sends, and a pretty good dialog can be had!

 

[Son of Bovril]

...I had someone tell me that these Radials passive ones have better signal quality than the active ones (ebs, countryman, tone hammer), which in turn would be better than the amp DI-outs... Seems like over-generalization to me now that I have learned the above .

I wouldn't say that the radials are BETTER than others like the countryman, but the tone hammer and ebs are actually preamps as well, so you can't really compare them toe to toe

 

[KJung]

I wouldn't say that the radials are BETTER than others like the countryman, but the tone hammer and ebs are actually preamps as well, so you can't really compare them toe to toe

+1 I kind of think of the Tone Hammer, EBS, Sadowsky pre, etc. as more similar to taking a post EQ DI send from an amp, versus the more neutral (passive or active) send of a unit like a JDI or Countryman.

 

[Devo-lution]

As far as I know, virtually all amp DI's are in some ways 'buffered' (if I'm using that term correctly), even in pre EQ mode, so this all becomes a moot point (i.e., they act similarly to 'active DI's).

Regarding quality, for most, the DI coming out of the back of an amp is perfectly acceptable for live performance, and very few would notice the 'improvement' of a higher end DI like the JDI or Countryman. The only time I use my JDI is when I'm in a situation with no backline, which is rare. IF you want a lot of color to your tone going into the board, there are units like the Avalon U5, the Reddi, etc., etc. that are designed to provide various tonal impacts (i.e., tube warmth, set EQ curves, etc.), so that is a little bit of a different thing. Also, studio work, where everything is 'under the microscope', is a completely different thing.

If you are one, like me, who sends a pure signal to the board (i.e., I don't use effects or compression or any of that stuff, and prefer a rig that is at least somewhat 'PA' like on stage... i.e., full range with tweeter), then sending a pre EQ DI send from a reasonable quality amp (Genz, Markbass, GK, Eden, etc., etc.) should work beautifully.

In my situation, I typically ask the sound professional if he would mind using a pre EQ signal from my head (making sure I also mention that if there is a problem, I'm glad to use whatever he/she provides). In 30 years, I've NEVER had an issue. As soon as they hear 'pre EQ', they at least know that you are aware of some of the issues with DI sends, and a pretty good dialog can be had!

Great... I'm no compression fan either but I do use some effects every now and then.

However, I am not really a tweeter freq fan (lots of high mids but very few highs is my preference)... Going pre-eq would make my sound much brighter than it would be cabwise.

I never really had trouble with soundmen either, except for one case. He insisted I used his cheap-o mic (instead of my DI) and after the show, our regular fanbase informed me that they hadn't heard a single not of bass, not even during the bass solo :')...

By the way, sorry for hijacking... I am going to shut up now .

 

[KJung]

Great... I'm no compression fan either but I do use some effects every now and then.

However, I am not really a tweeter freq fan (lots of high mids but very few highs is my preference)... Going pre-eq would make my sound much brighter than it would be cabwise.

I never really had trouble with soundmen either, except for one case. He insisted I used his cheap-o mic (instead of my DI) and after the show, our regular fanbase informed me that they hadn't heard a single not of bass, not even during the bass solo :')...

By the way, sorry for hijacking... I am going to shut up now .

+1 Lot's of ways to get each of our 'tones of choice' to the front of house. The only really 'wrong' way IMO is using a passive DI with a passive bass. And even that, I'm sure, can work for some (although the results are quite unpredictable depending on the input impedance of the unit, pickup type, length of cable run, input impedance of the board, etc., etc.,etc.... really not a very good idea). Everything else, IMO, is a choice (i.e., pre EQ, post EQ, mic'ing, active relatively neutral DI vs. 'preamp' or voiced DI (Reddi, etc.), effects, etc., etc., etc.!)

 

[staccatogrowl]

Assuming access to phantom power, active Radial J48 works great with passive and active basses alike . . . If anyone is interested, the owner manual states why: Invalid Link Removed . . . My J48 experience confirms equal DI success with passive or active bass circuits . . .

 

[KJung]

Assuming access to phantom power, active Radial J48 works great with passive and active basses alike . . . If anyone is interested, the owner manual states why: Invalid Link Removed . . . My J48 experience confirms equal DI success with passive or active bass circuits . . .

UM, that is what we've been saying. Active DI's are fine with any bass (like the J48 or the Countryman). It is a passive DI (like the JDI) with a passive bass that can cause some issues.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why this is such a confusing topic The OP's question was 'now that he has an active bass, would he be OK using the venue supplied passive DI?'. The answer is 'yes'.

There is a certain beauty and advantage to using a high quality, transformer based passive DI IF you have an active bass.... tonally and also noise levels, lack of ground loop issues, etc., etc., and just the simplicity of a passive unit (no batteries, no phantom power needed, etc., etc.). However, a Countryman works pretty well for just about any situation IMO and IME!

Edit: One 'advantage' of the Countryman over the J48 is that it can also run on its own battery power... usually not a big issue with even moderate quality front of house though.

 

[JimmyM]

Totally untrue. If you have an active bass, you are correct, it doesn't matter, you can use anything and be fine.

If you have a passive bass running into a passive DI, you can really impact the top end of your tone, depending on the length of the cable run and the input impedance of the DI, etc.

while you're right about that, i've found that dogs are about the only ones who notice. and while some folks who attend my gigs will bring their dogs when we play outside, i can't say they've ever complained that i didn't have enough treble

 

[KJung]

while you're right about that, i've found that dogs are about the only ones who notice. and while some folks who attend my gigs will bring their dogs when we play outside, i can't say they've ever complained that i didn't have enough treble

It impacts MUCH more than upper treble, and would have a MUCH greater impact than, for example, the phasing of two slightly different cabinets used together

Are you saying that you actually use a passive DI with a passive bass?

 

[JimmyM]

It impacts MUCH more than upper treble, and would have a MUCH greater impact than, for example, the phasing of two slightly different cabinets used together

Are you saying that you actually use a passive DI with a passive bass?

i've done it before, absolutely. i hardly ever use a di with my own rigs anymore, but i'm still forced into it with other rigs. and honestly, i couldn't care less if it's active or passive, as long as it's good. like the whirlwind imp 2 is sort of meh, but a radial jdi is great.

 

[agedhorse]

Here's a few rule of thumb tidbits that affect DI use and how to get better performance from such...

1. Generally, a passive bass will benefit from an active DI. The reason is the output impedance of a passive pickup is fairly highy (anywhere frfom 2k to 10k) and when combined with the typical input impedance of a passive DI (from 10k to 50k) can result in loading down of the pickups. The practical results of this are lower output from the instrument, and since a transformer is not a pure resistive load (there;s a lot of inductance) this will interact with the pickups leading to a different frequency response. An active DI has a much higher input impedance which results in less interaction (for better or for worse). A passive DI works by transforming the impedance, along with this transform the voltage steps down and the current steps up in accordance to Ohm's law.

2. Still, a passive DI amy work with a pasive bass juust fine and MAY even product a "better" swound for some players in some situations. Definately worth a try before dismissing it ooutright.

3. An active bass (most) have low outout impedances, and also have the "same" active electronics driving the output that an active DI has. An active DI typically has active electronics driving then primary winding of a passive transformer, often the same transformer that's in a passive DI. So an active DI will usually drive a passive DI with no problems.

4. An active bass with an active DI will work ok BUT you pay a penalty in noise floor because you have an added stage of electronics in line and the high impedance input is going to be a little noisier. There's also greater potential for RFI noise. Generally not my favorite way to go, but as I am famous for saying... "it depends".

5. An active DI that's designed into a quality amp may be one of two different topologies. Both types are designed knowing the internal grounding scheme of their associated amps, and generally work quite well driving long lines with a minimum loss of fidelity.

6. The best isolation is with a passive DI. All phantom powered active DI's, by the nature of being powered by the console, suffer a bit from isolation. Fully isolating means that phantom power is lost. The exception to this is the battery powered option of the Countryman 85, which is one reason this DI is a favorite (if that's your flavor of course).

 

[KJung]

Here's a few rule of thumb tidbits that affect DI use and how to get better performance from such...

1. Generally, a passive bass will benefit from an active DI. The reason is the output impedance of a passive pickup is fairly highy (anywhere frfom 2k to 10k) and when combined with the typical input impedance of a passive DI (from 10k to 50k) can result in loading down of the pickups. The practical results of this are lower output from the instrument, and since a transformer is not a pure resistive load (there;s a lot of inductance) this will interact with the pickups leading to a different frequency response. An active DI has a much higher input impedance which results in less interaction (for better or for worse). A passive DI works by transforming the impedance, along with this transform the voltage steps down and the current steps up in accordance to Ohm's law.

2. Still, a passive DI amy work with a pasive bass juust fine and MAY even product a "better" swound for some players in some situations. Definately worth a try before dismissing it ooutright.

3. An active bass (most) have low outout impedances, and also have the "same" active electronics driving the output that an active DI has. An active DI typically has active electronics driving then primary winding of a passive transformer, often the same transformer that's in a passive DI. So an active DI will usually drive a passive DI with no problems.

4. An active bass with an active DI will work ok BUT you pay a penalty in noise floor because you have an added stage of electronics in line and the high impedance input is going to be a little noisier. There's also greater potential for RFI noise. Generally not my favorite way to go, but as I am famous for saying... "it depends".

5. An active DI that's designed into a quality amp may be one of two different topologies. Both types are designed knowing the internal grounding scheme of their associated amps, and generally work quite well driving long lines with a minimum loss of fidelity.

6. The best isolation is with a passive DI. All phantom powered active DI's, by the nature of being powered by the console, suffer a bit from isolation. Fully isolating means that phantom power is lost. The exception to this is the battery powered option of the Countryman 85, which is one reason this DI is a favorite (if that's your flavor of course).

+1 to all of the above based on my experience (and always nice to get more technical info describing why we laymen 'hear what we hear' with this stuff!

That is why IMO the 'safe' bet is an active bass into a passive DI (that is a wonderful thing... transformer isolated, but no real issues with capacitance, cable lengths, etc... for me, the best of all worlds) or a passive bass into an active DI, where you lose a bit of 'quality/isolation' in the DI, but have, for some, the advantages of a passive instrument without the long cable runs killing your tone due to impedance issues, etc.

Of course, strange combinations can work pretty well I'm sure, but again, those are the exceptions and not the rule IMO and IME.

 

[Jim C]

The agedhorse has spoken and, as usual, has had the same experiences as I.
I will say that I've only encountered the compounded noise floor issue with active bass / active DI in very few instances and suspect that the issue was caused by low end equipment.
2 things that make a huge difference regarding DI type for live sound use IMO:
* Exactly how far is the cable run fo a passive DI; willing to bet that most players on this board are doing the club thing and may have a total of 50' of snake between the DI and house console which is a much different animal than 500'
* What's the house PA? The difference between a 2,000 seat acousticaly designed hall loaded with Meyers vs. a couple of speakers on a pole in the local square room bar with 1wall being glass are not in the same league. Doubt that most of us weekend warriors that play to 100 people are less have a PA or room that would actually be able to illustrate this difference wants the band starts. Kinda like spitting in the ocean as the overall delta of sound quality may be insignificant.

 

[SteveC]

I have never had a complaint from the DI in my Genz Benz head. I believe someone did a comparison with a scope and stuff and the GB built in was right up there with the JDI and many others. Another reason to use GB stuff. One less thing to carry.

 

[KJung]

I have never had a complaint from the DI in my Genz Benz head. I believe someone did a comparison with a scope and stuff and the GB built in was right up there with the JDI and many others. Another reason to use GB stuff. One less thing to carry.

+1 The vast majority of DI's on amp heads are MORE than adequate for front of house use in all but the most high end concert type situations (and even then, my guess would be they would be fine).

 

[KJung]

i've done it before, absolutely. i hardly ever use a di with my own rigs anymore, but i'm still forced into it with other rigs. and honestly, i couldn't care less if it's active or passive, as long as it's good. like the whirlwind imp 2 is sort of meh, but a radial jdi is great.

I would highly recommend doing a bit better match if you ever go back to using DI's. It really does make a difference in many cases.

I don't understand this 'I couldn't care less' attitude though. I guess if you don't care much about your front of house sound, but it seems that you do very much. And, combined with your interest in the VERY minor issues we always talk about with speaker cabs (phasing, etc.), I guess I'm kind of surprised you wouldn't want to optimize your signal to the front of house

 

[rockstarbassist]

+1 The vast majority of DI's on amp heads are MORE than adequate for front of house use in all but the most high end concert type situations (and even then, my guess would be they would be fine).

This, usually. I've yet to own a head where the DI just flat out sounds "bad". My fave DI sends are from the Mesa and Eden camps, and are easily on-par w/ my JDI if you go side by side.

 

[svtb15]

I agree with you.. And from my vast experience, I know you are right.
One needs to experiment and see what is best for them. and their situation
EDIT : I am blessed to work with some incredibly competent grammy winning engineers and major tour FOH guys almost daily. I am so humbled and thankful for that...
But I showed one of them this and another thread today, and we are in agreement that there are some people spreading such mis information on TB that we just need to sit back with a tub of pop corn and watch it ...

It is mostly entertainment for me..

listen, this hooha about active bass needs passive di and passive bass needs active di is all an invention by the di makers to sell more di's. just use your microbass. it's got a great di...used to have one.

 

[KJung]

I agree with you.. And from my vast experience, I know you are right.
One needs to experiment and see what is best for them.

There are some people spreading such mis information on TB that I just need to sit back with a tub of pop corn and watch it ...

Why would one not want to understand what is going on with this stuff. I thought Agedhorse's post was great, and enjoy the discussion.

 

[svtb15]

Agedhorse is always correct... from my point of view. He is a genius..
need to get to gig now.. will check back later though