+1,000,000
Rent something (better yet, have the touring act pay for it) and give yourself some time to research/get more cash/etc... I'm a JBL snob, but there's other great subs out there that probably don't cost as much.
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Adding a sub
- Thread starter samson3382
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+1,000,000
Rent something (better yet, have the touring act pay for it) and give yourself some time to research/get more cash/etc... I'm a JBL snob, but there's other great subs out there that probably don't cost as much.
Big Hoss
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Getting it on and off the cart is the concern. Even with the lighter stuff, you would have to be an imbecile to want to lug all your gear from vehicle to stage without some sort of wheels holding it off the ground... And what about those venues where you have to schlep your gear up multiple flights of stairs. Even with a hand truck, that's still problematic with heavier / bulkier gear. So yes sound is critical, but don't underestimate the value of gear you can physically manage.
I have to say Carvin has really upped their game in the "most bang for your buck" category. I've heard the SCX cabinets in action with a loud rock band in a full club and was really impressed. I get what you're saying about not wanting to have heavy gear to schlep, but when it comes to low end, there's no replacement for displacement.
That seems strange that it cuts off at 75Hz. The elx 118P that I use goes from 32Hz - 130Hz. Considering the low E on bass is 41Hz and the low B on a 5er is around 30Hz you'd not be getting much use out of your sub. If i've got it back to front and that "sub out" cuts everything above 75Hz you won't have enough crossover from your top boxes to your sub. What model mixer are you using?
Also, if you go down the powered sub route it will have it's own volume control on the back of the sub.
Big Hoss
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While I don't think those subs are appropriate for this purpose, your statement just strikes me as complete bull sh*#
Ok. There's two ways you could go about it but either way you can still control your sub volume via the volume level on the back of a powered sub or via the amp volumes (if it has them).
One way is using the dedicated "Sub Out" however i'd probably not go this route as it has the 75Hz low pass filter which means that you lose all the low/mid sound from 75Hz to 130Hz.
The other is going out of the TRS "Main Out" which will send all the signal to the sub. This should be fine if you use a powered sub with built-in crossover. If using only one sub you'd want to make sure your bass, kick and any other instrument with very low frequencies (usually only a keyboard) are either only panned to the side you use (L or R) or are centered. In most cases kick and bass are centered in a mix anyway. If you're using two powered subs then you're sweet.
It is usually the case that having your FOH coming out the main L & R XLR outputs whilst also having something (in this case the sub) coming out of the jack main output is fine but some mixers may not like this and when one is being used it may silence the other.
I am no audio expert by any means but have a lot of practical experience and have done this type of thing before however I would suggest you try and get some more advice from those more experienced, preferably someone at Mackie.
Big Hoss
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Do the math. A 200 watt speaker with a sensitivity of 96db at 1 watt/meter.
Okay, I'm game. Explain the math, how it relates to speaker sensitivity, and how exactly this relates to whether or not the subs in question are audible at a distance of 50 feet. There is a reason I am not an engineer.
What I CAN tell you is that a cheap as heck old school 1980s 50 watt boom box had clearly audible bass at distances greater than 50 feet. I have personally observed that. I know cab design / speaker design etc... have a lot to do with it, but I can't imagine 30 years down the technology road, the more modern speaker / cab / amp would be any quieter. Especially at 4x the power, and 2x the speaker diameter.
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What it means, since you get 3db for every time you double the power, is that you're looking at a max SPL of about 118 or so. Good quality powered mains will do closer to 125-130. So when you're talking about a good 6-10db deficiency, you won't really hear the subs underneath the mains, because if you're maxing out your subs at 200, you would only be able to put about 25w into the mains (which probably have 500w amps in them), which is kind of a waste. And the efficiency number on the sub is probably at 1khz. Once you get down somewhere past 100, that's going to drop off sharply. If your 10db down point is 35hz, that means your max spl there is about in the 108-110 range, and THAT'S if the driver has the excursion to handle the full 200 watts there (which realistically, it can probably handle about half, so subtract another 3db).
I would imagine these particular subs might be ok for like a coffee shop situation, with a keyboard player and using 8s or 10s as mains for fairly low volume stuff but where you want a little more reinforcement in the lows. But for a rock band in a bar, I would want at least 4 of those to match 1 pair of mains, and at that point I'd rather just have 1 or 2 15 or 18" subs which are going to be a LOT more capable, and the net weight will probably be close to the same.
I would imagine these particular subs might be ok for like a coffee shop situation, with a keyboard player and using 8s or 10s as mains for fairly low volume stuff but where you want a little more reinforcement in the lows. But for a rock band in a bar, I would want at least 4 of those to match 1 pair of mains, and at that point I'd rather just have 1 or 2 15 or 18" subs which are going to be a LOT more capable, and the net weight will probably be close to the same.
Big Hoss
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Yeah, SPL is a bit easier to wrap my head around...
My point was though, the subs themselves, assuming no mains, should be audible at a distance of 50 feet. Modulusman's assertion I have to assume is when used with mains. Which is why I stated that those subs seemed to be inappropriate for the application in question. On their own, they should be audible, with even cheap relatively low powered mains, those subs would be drowned out in the mix of things.
My point was though, the subs themselves, assuming no mains, should be audible at a distance of 50 feet. Modulusman's assertion I have to assume is when used with mains. Which is why I stated that those subs seemed to be inappropriate for the application in question. On their own, they should be audible, with even cheap relatively low powered mains, those subs would be drowned out in the mix of things.
Omega Monkey explained it fairly well. The rule of thumb is every time you double the power/watts you gain 3db. So a speaker rated at 96db at I watt would be 99 at 2 watts, 102 at 4 watts etc. But every time you double the distance you lose 6db. So a speaker at say 120db at one meter would only be 114db at 2 meters etc. So yeah those POS would not be very loud when you figure the onstage volume and the mains speakers.
Big Hoss
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See now that's helpful information! I would figure they would easily be lost audibly with pretty much any other amplified sound aside from maybe one of those 60 or 120 watt portable PA rigs with everything going through them.
Have you measured, in the real world, just how much power you are running your mains at? Not how much they are capable of.
Presuming some decent level of efficiency and no power needed in the bass range, 25 watts is quite possibly as loud as you would get. Remember, guitarists often get away with 15 or 30 watts that sound plenty loud.
I mean, I routinely put 25-50 watts average into my home stereo speakers in my average sized living room. When you bring in live vocals, keys, etc... you need a lot of watts to get the job done.
My amp is 300wpc at 8 ohms, and my speakers are the same. So I pretty much shoot to have the clip light on the amp flickering. So yes, probably averaging at least 50-150 and peaking at 300+, and in a bigger room or with a huge crowd that starts to feel a little restrictive sometimes. And these are efficient, good quality 3 way 15s.
Like I said, those subs might be ok for a coffee house or other quieter situation (with smaller mains), but I wouldn't bother trying to use them for a plugged in rock or pop/dance band. And there's just a certain character of the sound you get when you have more than enough headroom (in terms of power and speaker capability). A full club system, even played quietly with a CD, is going to have a certain "weight" and clarity to it, that a tiny system at the same SPL would not have.
My amp is 300wpc at 8 ohms, and my speakers are the same. So I pretty much shoot to have the clip light on the amp flickering. So yes, probably averaging at least 50-150 and peaking at 300+, and in a bigger room or with a huge crowd that starts to feel a little restrictive sometimes. And these are efficient, good quality 3 way 15s.
Like I said, those subs might be ok for a coffee house or other quieter situation (with smaller mains), but I wouldn't bother trying to use them for a plugged in rock or pop/dance band. And there's just a certain character of the sound you get when you have more than enough headroom (in terms of power and speaker capability). A full club system, even played quietly with a CD, is going to have a certain "weight" and clarity to it, that a tiny system at the same SPL would not have.
Regardless of the specs, the Kustoms can be heard quite well at more than 50 feet.
A very popular local blues band here uses a set up of two of the small Kustom subwoofers under two QSC K8s. They sound great.
I have one myself that I use under a PA50 for small shows when our band plays acoustic and the drummer uses a cajon or doumbek. It sounds great.
But as Omega Monkey noted above the Kustoms are best used for acoustic coffeehouse stuff, or medium volume blues etc. I actually have seen them used outdoors for an audience of 200 or so and they definitely did the job, but I've never used mine with our full rock band. It's a $200 sub, so I try not to use it like a $2K QSC.
I will now wait for modulusman to pee all over my comments
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Yes Kustom has products that somehow defy the law of physics.Regardless of the specs, the Kustoms can be heard quite well at more than 50 feet.
A very popular local blues band here uses a set up of two of the small Kustom subwoofers under two QSC K8s. They sound great.
I have one myself that I use under a PA50 for small shows when our band plays acoustic and the drummer uses a cajon or doumbek. It sounds great.
But as Omega Monkey noted above the Kustoms are best used for acoustic coffeehouse stuff, or medium volume blues etc. I actually have seen them used outdoors for an audience of 200 or so and they definitely did the job, but I've never used mine with our full rock band. It's a $200 sub, so I try not to use it like a $2K QSC.
I will now wait for modulusman to pee all over my comments
That is why they are held in such high regard in the pro sound field.
I wanted to jump in here with a quick review of the Electro-Voice ZXA1SUB.
Now to start off I own a QSC KW181 and before that two K12 subs. My current band rarely needs subs though we all go direct. We all use IEM and the only amp onstage is my small Markbass 15" combo which is kept low. I just find the KW181 to dang heavy and awkward to use, twisted my wrist really bad one night moving it. So I stumbled on this little EV sub and read all the reviews I could find. Now this thing is great, it is so light I can carry it with one arm if needed and I can with my Markbass Combo with the other. (ps I'm 62). They were pretty spread out but overall they were favorable. So I bought one for $599.00. I used it this weekend with two K10's as tops. My board is a Mackie DL1608. Now I've always felt the Mackie had a bit of an output issue, meaning it wasn't a real hot output (I own two). I first tried the sub in my garage with a single K10 with sub switch activated. I liked it but felt the sub was under powered and I had to back the 10 off which left me with a quietish pa. So I dug out a small 4 channel mixer I had and sent one out from the Mackie to the mixer which in turn fed the sub. This allowed me to bring up the signal to the sub until I could see the peak light on the back and then backed it off. This increased things quite well.
Ok the gig. The room was wider than deep which is where the K10's shine. I placed the EV sub on the floor at center stage. Fired up the ayatem and OMG the thing kicked butt with recorded music and later with the band. Now the kicl had some meat as did my bass. We used it all night and it just added a fullness to the band not volume. The room holds maybe 80 people and no it didn't thump your chest but I think I am in love. I am now selling my K181 (any takers?) and will use the funds to basically buy two of these. So for small acts that aren't trying to knock people over I think you should give this a look.
I hope you all found this helpful and educational.
Now to start off I own a QSC KW181 and before that two K12 subs. My current band rarely needs subs though we all go direct. We all use IEM and the only amp onstage is my small Markbass 15" combo which is kept low. I just find the KW181 to dang heavy and awkward to use, twisted my wrist really bad one night moving it. So I stumbled on this little EV sub and read all the reviews I could find. Now this thing is great, it is so light I can carry it with one arm if needed and I can with my Markbass Combo with the other. (ps I'm 62). They were pretty spread out but overall they were favorable. So I bought one for $599.00. I used it this weekend with two K10's as tops. My board is a Mackie DL1608. Now I've always felt the Mackie had a bit of an output issue, meaning it wasn't a real hot output (I own two). I first tried the sub in my garage with a single K10 with sub switch activated. I liked it but felt the sub was under powered and I had to back the 10 off which left me with a quietish pa. So I dug out a small 4 channel mixer I had and sent one out from the Mackie to the mixer which in turn fed the sub. This allowed me to bring up the signal to the sub until I could see the peak light on the back and then backed it off. This increased things quite well.
Ok the gig. The room was wider than deep which is where the K10's shine. I placed the EV sub on the floor at center stage. Fired up the ayatem and OMG the thing kicked butt with recorded music and later with the band. Now the kicl had some meat as did my bass. We used it all night and it just added a fullness to the band not volume. The room holds maybe 80 people and no it didn't thump your chest but I think I am in love. I am now selling my K181 (any takers?) and will use the funds to basically buy two of these. So for small acts that aren't trying to knock people over I think you should give this a look.
I hope you all found this helpful and educational.
