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AKG D112 & AMT S-25

Discussion in 'Amps, Mics & Pickups [DB]' started by lin fung, Apr 15, 2004.


  1. lin fung

    lin fung Supporting Member

    Oct 9, 2002
    Taipei, Taiwan
    I'm looking to buy a mic exclusively for double bass use. I've tried an AKG 4000b and an AKG D112 (a bass drum mic) and liked the sound of the latter better.
    I realize that there are two mics on the market designed to be conveniently mounted on the bass (the Golden Bullet and the AMT), but without the opportunity to test one out first, I am hesistant to put down the cash.
    Can anyone give me any input on how these two mics might compare to the D112 on these qualities:

    1. full, accurate sound
    2. "bleed" problems
    3. feedback

    My plan would be to attach the mic to the bridge (it's too big to be slung between the bridge feet) by cutting a "cradle" of low-density foam to place the mic in, and then strapping it to the bridge with rubber bands, or something. I would only leave it on when using the mic in order not to interfere with the sound when playing acoustically.

    Additionally, could anyone recommend any other accurate sounding, low feedback mics that could be slung between the bridge feet? Thanks for any suggestions.
     
  2. Adrian Cho

    Adrian Cho Supporting Member

    Sep 17, 2001
    Ottawa, Canada
    I know Monte and others have tried this mic on a stand. I confess to not knowing much about the D112 except what it's originally used for. I would have figured that the weight would be a bit much to strap to the bridge.

    I can only only repeat what I've said about the AMT - that it has a very tight pattern yet a very flat response and the preamp also has a low pass filter built-in. The result is that it's very usable and I never practically deal with feedback or bleed and I love the sound.

    My results with large condensers like the AKG C4000B and the AT4047/SV as well as smaller condensers like the Rode NT3 and the Oktava MC012 were not as good. Basically just too much feedback and bleed.
     
  3. Marcus Johnson

    Marcus Johnson

    Nov 28, 2001
    Maui
    Seconds on the AMT; I absolutely love mine. It seems like a lot of money, but it sounds phenomenal on my bass. You could always buy one and return it if you absolutely don't like it...but I think you'll like it.
     
  4. Adrian Cho

    Adrian Cho Supporting Member

    Sep 17, 2001
    Ottawa, Canada
    The problem is which way will the mic be pointing? At the table of the bass or will it be parallel to the table? I tried a Rode NT3 and an Oktava MC012 between the bridge feet with rubber bands so that the mic was mounted parallel to the table. The sound wasn't that great and bleed and feedback were definitely issues.

    What people don't seem to realise with the AMT is that it is really usable and that's one of the things you're paying for. That's why some AMT users can even use the mic exclusively. There are other similar sized mics that mount on the bass such as the Golden Trinit but from I've read of other people's experiences, feedback and bleed are big enough problems that they often can't use the mic too much and very rarely can they ever use it exclusively.

    I don't even own a pickup nowadays.
     
  5. Pacman

    Pacman Layin' Down Time Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 1, 2000
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
    The D112 seems a bit bulky for what you're trying to do. If you're sold on using a dynamic mic, Lynn Seaton swears by his Beta 56. Wedged with foam between the bridge feet, he angles it slightly towards the table. No feedback problems anytime I've heard him play.
     
  6. Robert

    Robert

    Nov 14, 2003
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Okay, just HOW fantastic is this AMT? Doesn't it even feed back when the volume is high and the drummer is near?
     
  7. Adrian Cho

    Adrian Cho Supporting Member

    Sep 17, 2001
    Ottawa, Canada
    It's no miracle. It's just a well designed and proven microphone that is made specifically for bass. Like any mic it has it's limits. If I really crank it up, sure I can get it to feedback but what I'm saying is that I never have to crank it up that much (and I'm basically talking about everything - the amp, the preamp, cranked up max) and I play in all kinds of situations including many that are loud and tight. I find it a very usable product - so usable in fact that I can use it 100% of the time. And that IMO is the difference between this mic and most others I've seen. I also think that I've made some reasonable effort to make this work. I'm not saying all others haven't but sometimes I get the feeling some mic users either don't know what they are doing or just get feedback once and decide the whole thing doesn't work.

    There are a lot of top guys using the mic although not all use it exclusively. Some only use it for feeding to the house, and some mix it with a pickup, etc. E-mail guys like Rufus Reid and they'll be happy to tell you of their experiences.

    It's not magic and I'm not an endorser or connected with AMT in anyway. For me, the sound is everything and I found that a suitable mic, properly setup, is the only way to get the amplified sound I want. This mic allows me to do that with a minimum of hassle.

    The only way to know whether it works for you is to try it out yourself.
     
  8. Robert

    Robert

    Nov 14, 2003
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Sounds like a really nice mic. What type of amp is recommended to use together with it? Is a really hi-fi amp required to get all the great benefits? What type of amp are you using?
     
  9. Adrian Cho

    Adrian Cho Supporting Member

    Sep 17, 2001
    Ottawa, Canada
    Well I guess it depends on what you're sound ideal is. For me, I'm looking for nothing less than completely natural reproduction or as close to it as I can get. So I do use it with a hi-fi amp - the Schertler Pub 2/280. The combination of the AMT and the Pub is damn impressive to be honest (and the sound is impressively honest). Other folks may not have the same sound reinforcement goals in mind. Some guys have a pickup that sounds really harsh so they want to soften it up with the mic. Sometimes that works but to me it's a waste of a mic (and a waste of the effort of using the mic). You might as well soften up the sound with some electronics, tubes, whatever. I would definitely think it would be a pity (and a waste) to use this mic with an amp that muddied up the sound.

    I have put some of this info and my thoughts on this topic on my gear web page if you're interested. You can check it out at http://www.adriancho.com/Gear.html.
     
  10. Robert

    Robert

    Nov 14, 2003
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Nice website. :)

    It really does sound like a killer combination. You don't happen to have some dry samples of the mike, do you?
     
  11. Adrian Cho

    Adrian Cho Supporting Member

    Sep 17, 2001
    Ottawa, Canada
    Not off-hand. Actually I think you asked this in another thread and I replied that I thought they wouldn't be much of use without comparing it to the bass in person. If I can get some time I'll make some.
     
  12. Robert

    Robert

    Nov 14, 2003
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Ah, yes that was me, I just haven't read it yet. ;)

    True about the comparison with the bass in real life, it would be nice just to hear the color of the sound though.
     
  13. Sam Sherry

    Sam Sherry Inadvertent Microtonalist Supporting Member

    Sep 26, 2001
    Portland, ME
    Euphonic Audio "Player"
    If you have an irresistable urge to hear the AMT S-25 under, shall we say, "less than ideal conditions," go to RECORDINGS and link to the Sampler. Two of my submissions are with the AMT.

    I Know Noble Accents shows what happens when the band is mixed live, broadcast, burned off the radio to CD and ripped to mp3.

    Two Songs shows what happens in a let's-record-mix-and-master-four-songs-in-three-hours session with an engineer who appeared to be making his maiden voyage with a saxaphone.

    The value of the AMT is so clear at times like these: The fewer variables you give the engineer, the higher the chance that something resembling your sound appears. For those of us without the luxury of boundless studio time, being able to say, "This works good in this spot" and then put it there ourselves can mean a lot.

    And Robert, good to see you posting. Please take a minute to fill out your profile -- it helps everybody. Thanks.
     
  14. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    How much money are we talking about? I'm torn between trying to swing a new bass ($5500-$7500) or getting a killer setup/new mic/amplification system on my old one (under $2000). The latter, I could do and still remain happily married. The former....well, let's just say I'd have to sell a bunch of stuff, and then we could have THE DISCUSSION.

    I know there was an old thread around here somewhere comparing the AMT and the Trinity. I know ALIEN SNOW was involved, and I know that he thought the AMT was far superior - but I can't seem to find the damn thing. Damn, I need to update those newbie links...anyway, if anybody can find that old thread, or can add some comparitive commentary, I'd be grateful. I'm thinking of trying the AMT and a Full Circle, and hopefully using only the mic most of the time. How much (ballpark, of course) am I looking at to score the AMT with the bridge mount upgrade?
     
  15. Sam Sherry

    Sam Sherry Inadvertent Microtonalist Supporting Member

    Sep 26, 2001
    Portland, ME
    Euphonic Audio "Player"
    I guess $450-750 depending on options. As someone who often plays with the No-Amp and who uses the AMT less than monthly I don't want the tailpiece-mount. I'm just kinda opposed to long, weighty, snaky things gettin' attached to my bass with screws and all that anyway. The regular removable bracket is really no problem, it's got infinite placement options and it's guaranteed to have zero impact on acoustic sound.

    It's the ear, not the gear, my friend. Gear? Bass? Record? Furnace?

    I will say that having been a GAS-hog for about fifteen years, I am now pared down to essentials. Although infrequently used, the AMT stays with me because when I want it I don't want anything less.

    Either you did it or somebody took care of it for you ;>
     
  16. Marcus Johnson

    Marcus Johnson

    Nov 28, 2001
    Maui
     
  17. Adrian Cho

    Adrian Cho Supporting Member

    Sep 17, 2001
    Ottawa, Canada
    I've never tried the Golden Trinity setup and anything I've ever said in relation to comparing it to the AMT always made that clear. What I based my purchase on was direct experience in using a friend's AMT, discussions with AMT tech support, the cost (yes expensive often means it's better but not always), the number of other folks using it, and the number of used Golden Trinity setups that seem to always be available for sale (although this could also be because there are a lot of them around - however you very rarely ever see a used AMT being sold).

    The only person I know that has tried both is Monte and he thought they were comparable although I can't remember if he actually used them under performance conditions. My point about the AMT is exactly that - that it's quite usable in performance situations. Finding a mic that SOUNDS GOOD is not hard to do at all. Finding one that actually allows you to get mic-quality sound cranked up loud without feedback and bleed, is another problem altogether.

    As I keep saying. It works for me. Doesn't mean it will work for anyone else but then also you should e-mail Patitucci and Rufus Reid and some of these other guys and see what they have to say. Stephan Crump who plays with Jen Chapin starting it using the AMT on my recommendation and seems very happy with it. The last I heard from him was that he wasn't using it in all situations but I gave him a few pointers on it.
     
  18. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    Well, that at least explains why I couldn't find that post I remembered by searching under your name! Duh. I guess I'm wondering if it's only "comparable" or if it's a hell of a lot better than the Trinity. No need to upgrade if it's a lateral move soundwise. Then again, if it's better....


    I got to hang with Rufus last summer and he wasn't even carrying the AMT with him, as he was all into the Schertler Dyn-B - he even spent about half an hour demoing it for me in my office through my EA stuff, and I have to admit it sounded great, especially arco. But I'm really looking for a mic sound. With the Trinity, it does a nice job of adding a nice woodiness and warmth to the blended sound (together with a p/u), but doesn't do much by itself volumewise, and it gets washed out very easily by cymbals, which come out louder through the mic than the bass does at times. I realize that this will happen to a degree with any mic, but I'd love to get to the point where I'm using only the mic or mic with a bit of piezo blend rather than the other way around.
     
  19. Adrian Cho

    Adrian Cho Supporting Member

    Sep 17, 2001
    Ottawa, Canada
    On his DVD he is using both the AMT and the Dyn-B and mixing them and told me he uses that alot and likes it better than either of them alone.

    As you may know, I had a Dyn-B for a while and used it exclusively and then later I got an AMT and mixed the two for a while. I found that the Dyn-B was good but nowhere as good as the AMT and that the AMT was entirely usable for all my situations so I got rid of the Dyn-B. I could have easily kept it and known that I could have it as a backup if ever the mic wouldn't work for me but I felt a bit silly having something so expensive just sitting there doing nothing all the time.

    I definitely don't have problems from the cymbals or anything else for that matter. I'm sure if I was to put headphones on and listen to what the mic is picking up, I'd hear lots of stuff but judging from what's coming out the amp, there's no obvious bleed. And I should say that my regular drummy has a pretty long sustaining cymbal sound which I personally don't like (I prefer it much drier) but it doesn't pose a problem for the mic.

    For my setup which is gut, there's a lot of character in that sound that the Dyn-B did not really pickup. It would get the basic warmth and body of the tone but not all those other little bits of the sound that really make that sound what it is. The mic however captures it all very nicely. There are times especially when I'm really digging in and I have it cranked up that I can really hear alot of the character coming through the amp and it sounds great.
     
  20. Adrian Cho

    Adrian Cho Supporting Member

    Sep 17, 2001
    Ottawa, Canada
    I should also add that a lot of the people that were and still do sell used Golden Trinity mics don't seem to be able to get them to work for them very well and I've ever heard of anyone using one exclusively.

    Speaking to the AMT tech support guys (basically Marty Paglione) sold me because they seem to be very dedicated to the customer and in it for the long term. My teacher is just about to send his AMT in. He bought one of the really early units and the mounting bracket rattled. He used it on a recording and the rattling was bad so he never used it again. Actually he now uses the Dyn-B that I sold him. He's going to send his AMT in and for about $100 they will upgrade the the whole to one of the newer models, new capsule, new mount (they fixed the rattling a long time ago), new preamp, new warranty. And his mic is very old. That's service IMO.