Sad but true. Got a "tube"distortion pedal from a well respected manufacturer. All it was was a standard opamp based distortion with diode clipping and a tube as the output buffer stage
Very very very disappointing.
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All Tube Chorus pedal hunt...
- Thread starter Acquistapace
- Start date
Sad but true. Got a "tube"distortion pedal from a well respected manufacturer. All it was was a standard opamp based distortion with diode clipping and a tube as the output buffer stage
Very very very disappointing.
Name names, Sean!!!Sad but true. Got a "tube"distortion pedal from a well respected manufacturer. All it was was a standard opamp based distortion with diode clipping and a tube as the output buffer stage
But, of course, there are some "tube" based pedals that actually sound fantastic. I know both my Valve Drive, and Squeezer run on a single 12AX7, and whether or not it's the tube or not, the pedals themselves are quite awesome. (I also run them into an all tube amp, so..) Until this thread, I had no idea anyone even made a tube chorus pedal, and still don't understand "why" you would. There are so many very natural, smooth, organic sounding analog chorus pedals on the market, I can't see how a vacuum tube stage would make them any warmer. Maybe I'm wrong.
Since phase shifting was invented and implemented as means of scrambling radio signals to keep the Germans from deciphering them during WW II until the advent of it's use in music the only tubes involved were those in the equipment being used to produce the signal. Chorus and Flanging effects are adaptations of Phasing. Chorus is basically two or more phase circuts operating in close sequence creating a shimmering effect that can be modified by increasing the speed and intensity of the phased signal. If you have a tube preamp or amp and run your bass through the chorus to the front of the amp the amp receives the phased signal from your bass. If you use an effects loop the signal is phased after the preamp circut in most cases and the signal from the bass is unaltered going into the amp.
The term "chorus" seems to have become pretty much standardized in the last 25 years to mean delay based comb filtering. This is impossible to achieve with an all tube signal path. You need either bucket brigade chips or a digital delay circuit. But before you bash Effectrode, remember that long ago, before bucket brigade technology was available, there was this pedal called the uni-vibe. It had a setting called "chorus" and it was esentially a what we today call phaser. This can be done using an all tube signal path, and I bet thats what Effectrode is doing.
I think "All Tube Chorus Pedals" is called a "Leslie"
HA!...At this point in the discussion I think you are correct sir!
Well, not you. Just felt that was the general vibe of of the thread.
I don't own any Effectrode pedals, and have no plans of getting any. But that upcoming tube compressor looks nice...
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Originally Posted by seamonkey View Post
I think "All Tube Chorus Pedals" is called a "Leslie"A Leslie speaker cabinet uses an electric motor to spin a baffle creating Doppler effect. Since the cabinet is stationary the result is temolo not chorus.
I visited Effectrode's web site. PT Barnum was right.
Just from my readings and experiences, some could be right, some wrong, but I can get realistic simulations using the same techniques.
Tremolo is is change in amplitude
Vibrato is change in pitch
Chorus is many sounds with vibrato by like a choir of singers all doing vibrato.
Leslie using Doppler both raised and lowered pitch and reflected this around the inside chamber. It simulates Chorusing.
Flanging came from way back post production technique of playing two tape simultaneously and pushing your thumb on the flange of one tape reel changing it's speed. This results in a moving comb filter.
Phaser is a notch filter changing in frequency. You could hook up several to get a moving comb effect.
Most all of the tricky "analog" stuff is handled by bucket brigade type devices (BBD). I suppose you could do this with tubes, but the get a simple 512 stage BBD, you'd need 512 tubes. Even Solid state BBD have a lot of loss and noise, digital techniques are really much better. But sometimes the side effects become part the familiarity of the effect. Some may not like digital because it doesn't have that extra background noise and losses, so some makers of digital BBD simulations add back the noise and loss.
Tremolo is when a sound varies back and forth with regard to amplitude (regardless of the Fender Rhodes and some old Fender amps having a trem mislabeled "Vibrato").
Vibrato is when a sound varies back and forth with regard to pitch (regardless of some old Fender amps having a vib. mislabeled "Tremolo").
A modulated delay will produce a vibrato. Modulated delays can be made using analog solid state bucket brigade chips. It can also be produced using the doppler effect.
A Leslie cab produces a delay based vibrato.
A modulated phase-shift circuit will also pruduce a vibrato, but with a different flavour, because the amount of pitch shift will depend on the frequency of the source signal. This effect is often referred to as "vibe". The uni-vibe used phase-shift circuits to produce its vibrato effect. Phase-shift circuits can be built using an all tube signal path, as is the case in some old amps.
The chorus effect occurs when a vibrato'ed signal is combined with a dry signal (or two or more signals with different vibrato are combined). This will produce comb filtering, regardless of whether the vibrato is delay-based or phase-based, but the comb filtering will be different.
A Leslie cab does not produce a chorus effect, unless you combine two of them. Or combine one with a "normal" speaker.
The chorus setting on the uni-vibe was really just dry signal mixed in with the virato'ed signal (as far as I know). This kind of effect is usually referred to as a "Phaser" today. Of course there are many parameters to consider and phasers can sound quite different from each other. Most do not sound like a uni-vibe "chorus".
A delay based chorus effect is often referred to as a flanger nowadays if it has a feedback/resonance circuit. Flange was originally produced by playing two identical tapes simultaneously, and touching the flanges on one of the tape reels so that it would slow down and speed up again, producing a modulated delay. When the sound was combined with the other tape, the result was a chorused or flanged sound.
Today, the term chorus is almost universally taken to mean delay based comb filtering with no feedback/resonance to accentuate the effect (that would be flange).
Sorry for the rant, couldn't help myself
Hope a few things got cleared up.
Vibrato is when a sound varies back and forth with regard to pitch (regardless of some old Fender amps having a vib. mislabeled "Tremolo").
A modulated delay will produce a vibrato. Modulated delays can be made using analog solid state bucket brigade chips. It can also be produced using the doppler effect.
A Leslie cab produces a delay based vibrato.
A modulated phase-shift circuit will also pruduce a vibrato, but with a different flavour, because the amount of pitch shift will depend on the frequency of the source signal. This effect is often referred to as "vibe". The uni-vibe used phase-shift circuits to produce its vibrato effect. Phase-shift circuits can be built using an all tube signal path, as is the case in some old amps.
The chorus effect occurs when a vibrato'ed signal is combined with a dry signal (or two or more signals with different vibrato are combined). This will produce comb filtering, regardless of whether the vibrato is delay-based or phase-based, but the comb filtering will be different.
A Leslie cab does not produce a chorus effect, unless you combine two of them. Or combine one with a "normal" speaker.
The chorus setting on the uni-vibe was really just dry signal mixed in with the virato'ed signal (as far as I know). This kind of effect is usually referred to as a "Phaser" today. Of course there are many parameters to consider and phasers can sound quite different from each other. Most do not sound like a uni-vibe "chorus".
A delay based chorus effect is often referred to as a flanger nowadays if it has a feedback/resonance circuit. Flange was originally produced by playing two identical tapes simultaneously, and touching the flanges on one of the tape reels so that it would slow down and speed up again, producing a modulated delay. When the sound was combined with the other tape, the result was a chorused or flanged sound.
Today, the term chorus is almost universally taken to mean delay based comb filtering with no feedback/resonance to accentuate the effect (that would be flange).
Sorry for the rant, couldn't help myself
Hope a few things got cleared up.
I have to disagree, see the Leslie wikipedia page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_speaker
It says "chorus" all over it. You are free to edit it and correct it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_speaker
It says "chorus" all over it. You are free to edit it and correct it.
All over?
The word "chorus" occurs exactly twice on that page. Once within quotation marks and once in a sentence that ends "...to create 'Doppler effect based' vibrato, tremolo and chorus effects". Since you can indeed create a chorus effect by means of muliple Leslies, the use of the word isn't completely out of place.
The Leslie isn't primarily a tremolo either, but volume does modulate a little bit along with the pitch, so I guess saying that it can be used to create tremolo effects isn't completely wrong either.
Seamonkey and LowB-ing
I was wrong in saying Leslie effect is tremolo. I can't find anything to classify it as something other than Doppler effect and say that it is unique but can be mimicked with modern circuitry. This has been an interesting conversation. Vibrato and tremolo are often confused. Manual phasing and flanging, have spawned many forms of effects used today and I'm thankful for the many innovators who have toiled to make them. I guess the real point here is that terminology is less important than making music. Understanding is tantamount to making music with others. Music is a language spoken in many tongues and understood by everyone even when we don't speak the same language.
I was wrong in saying Leslie effect is tremolo. I can't find anything to classify it as something other than Doppler effect and say that it is unique but can be mimicked with modern circuitry. This has been an interesting conversation. Vibrato and tremolo are often confused. Manual phasing and flanging, have spawned many forms of effects used today and I'm thankful for the many innovators who have toiled to make them. I guess the real point here is that terminology is less important than making music. Understanding is tantamount to making music with others. Music is a language spoken in many tongues and understood by everyone even when we don't speak the same language.
Would it be possible to do a discrete bucket brigade out of surface mount components? I know it would be bigger than a typical pedal but you could probably fit it in a one space rack with the right layout.
It looks like a discrete bucket brigade would be fairly easy, but huge and expensive. Looks like 5 transistors, a few caps, then one transistor and cap per stage. So for a 1024 stage delay you would need roughly 1029 transistors and 1029 caps.
It would be *much* noisier than the equivalent IC and take more power.
Depends on the tube, worst case would be the same as the number of transistors. But you could get tubes that are basically two transistors, so 1/2 that number. But you probably wouldn't go for 1024 stages, more likely 512. So maybe 260 or so?
I am not a tube expert though....
Interesting indeed...but I think at this point it's splitting hairs. Leslie/Doppler effect does vary the perceived pitch (kinda like chorus)...along with volume swells (like tremolo). So I think it's safe to say we're in the same ballpark.
Also, I believe the term "chorus" evolved from multi track layering when recording artists wanted to dup vocal tracks instead of singing them over and over again...to create a virtual chorus of singers (Beatles, Carpenters). The weight of the tape created the variances in pitch..blah blah blah....you know the rest. Basically pitch modulation.
Anyway...I ain't buyin no tube chorus pedal.
Past 11
It was a point of splitting hairs and there was no need to have the conversation degenerate and become uninformative. Yours is also a valid point. One of the first to experiment with such things was Les Paul.
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Also, I believe the term "chorus" evolved from multi track layering when recording artists wanted to dup vocal tracks instead of singing them over and over again...to create a virtual chorus of singers (Beatles, Carpenters).It was a point of splitting hairs and there was no need to have the conversation degenerate and become uninformative. Yours is also a valid point. One of the first to experiment with such things was Les Paul.
