Yeah I'm totally in agreement. Drummer needs to stop trying to do those fills and play to the song instead of whatever he's trying to do here. It's putting a hole in that pocket.
And yeah, shorts on stage is a big no-no.
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Am I "In the Pocket"?
- Thread starter Elmstreet
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- advice live sound pocket technique
And yeah, shorts on stage is a big no-no.
For me, pocket is all about the drummer. If he's not there, neither can I. The Dave Matthews clip is a great example. Drummer is absolutely spot on with his sense and awareness time, no wasted notes (like the op's drummer, who overplays and plays the same snare fill over and over). I'm fortunate to play with two drummers like that - perfect time, simple tasteful playing except for the occasional flash of brilliance. Its easy then for me to just be right there on the beat with them. I practice often with metronome - key for a bass player is to be as precise as the drummer. I can't stand listening to bass players that are off-time.
I will echo the consensus - you sound good, especially for just two years of playing.
It’s good you are thinking about the pocket and groove, but don’t stress on it. Keep playing, keep opening your ears and your mind, and you will develop ever deeper senses on the intricacies of timing, pocket, and groove.
It’s good you are thinking about the pocket and groove, but don’t stress on it. Keep playing, keep opening your ears and your mind, and you will develop ever deeper senses on the intricacies of timing, pocket, and groove.
As you progress through your musical journey, play with better players, and gain different experiences, you understand that pocket playing takes on an ever-increasing nuance. How picky do you want to be? If you play with top-tier players, they will certainly pick apart a bassist who does not lock.
It is required to be present and listen at a very high level of consciousness to what everyone around you is playing. Music is conversation.
Studying the role of the bass as it pertains to a style you wish to play means becoming an expert on the genre's components.
For example, if you want to play authentic blues or shuffle style, you do not push the front half of the downbeat. Listen to the Babalon Sisters by Steely Dan with Bernard Purdie Drums and Chuck Rainey Bass. If they sit any further back, they would be behind the beat. The relaxed approach makes that groove so freaking powerful and hard to play for many players. That approach is completely wrong for Van Halen, for example.
The definition of " in the groove" is, to some extent, a moving target and genre-dependent. You need to know which approach is appropriate and have the command to make those adjustments.
To the OP, regarding your videos, I would say to you, analyze (listen) where you play the downbeat and where the drummer hits the kick on beat one. I hear that you are on the front of the downbeat. With your full concentration, try not to be ahead, try to be one with where he is laying it down. The groove will get fatter instantly. Record every gig and see how your adjustments change the groove of the entire band. Bass holds a lot of power regarding the feel of the rhythm section. You should be talking to the drummer about how to approach the groove so he is as focused as you are.
This is the super-picky, rarified air that great players spend their time working on.
I agree with Bherman; practicing with a metronome is helpful. Try having it click on beats 2 and 4, which are the backbeat. That alone will help your internal clock develop.
Andrew Gouche, Bass... the kick and the bass can not lock any tighter... even if you don't dig the style of music, this is spectacular.
It is required to be present and listen at a very high level of consciousness to what everyone around you is playing. Music is conversation.
Studying the role of the bass as it pertains to a style you wish to play means becoming an expert on the genre's components.
For example, if you want to play authentic blues or shuffle style, you do not push the front half of the downbeat. Listen to the Babalon Sisters by Steely Dan with Bernard Purdie Drums and Chuck Rainey Bass. If they sit any further back, they would be behind the beat. The relaxed approach makes that groove so freaking powerful and hard to play for many players. That approach is completely wrong for Van Halen, for example.
The definition of " in the groove" is, to some extent, a moving target and genre-dependent. You need to know which approach is appropriate and have the command to make those adjustments.
To the OP, regarding your videos, I would say to you, analyze (listen) where you play the downbeat and where the drummer hits the kick on beat one. I hear that you are on the front of the downbeat. With your full concentration, try not to be ahead, try to be one with where he is laying it down. The groove will get fatter instantly. Record every gig and see how your adjustments change the groove of the entire band. Bass holds a lot of power regarding the feel of the rhythm section. You should be talking to the drummer about how to approach the groove so he is as focused as you are.
This is the super-picky, rarified air that great players spend their time working on.
I agree with Bherman; practicing with a metronome is helpful. Try having it click on beats 2 and 4, which are the backbeat. That alone will help your internal clock develop.
Andrew Gouche, Bass... the kick and the bass can not lock any tighter... even if you don't dig the style of music, this is spectacular.
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I've extracted your bass-line along with the drummer's one.
For a better "listening" experience, I've slowed down to 70% of the original song's - Blue on Black - tempo.
Let's listen and express your own opinion about it.
To be in the pocket means the image of the ability however complicated the beat gets usually as the drummer spices it up - your coins remain inside the pocket. When you get into R%B and funk or even if your drummer plays triplets with his bass drum then you will be tested of your ability to stay in the pocket.
I think you are doing good for this band though.
I think you are doing good for this band though.
I think you do a decent job of finding the pocket, and can see you are working hard to listen to the other players. Very good for 2 years of playing. There are some good technical tips here in this thread, but I will add one "old guy" story for you. Back in '73 or '74, when I had been playing about the same amount of time as you, my college band consisted of 4 players only one of whom was "in the pocket." Our drummer was a madman, talented but constantly changing tempo, pushing the beat on a giant kit, working towards a 5 minute solo (which seemed to occur every 15 minutes). He didn't listen to anybody else's playing. I frantically battered the notes out of my Rick trying to match him, until my plucking fingers were nothing but blisters. Our organ player hit random notes which were never in the key but sounded interesting with his Hammond and Leslie speaker, so we kept him in the band. Only the guitar player was "in the pocket." And yet, people stood there and watched us, didn't throw rotten fruit, perhaps proof that our pot at the time was better than people now say it was? But nobody danced, much. I submit to you that when you hit the pocket, or the groove, whatever you want to call it, and stay tight, your body will feel it and people will dance.
I’d suggest that the drummer play with a click. Until he is rock solid you won’t really understand what a good pocket feels like.
Also when a drummer plays to a click for the first time, it is very eye opening to them at how loose their fills are, which typically scales them back a bit while they focus on timing.
Also when a drummer plays to a click for the first time, it is very eye opening to them at how loose their fills are, which typically scales them back a bit while they focus on timing.
Very interesting way to listen - thanks for doing this. Drummer is definitely off at the front of the beat - bass player missing a few of the drops to the 4. One the drummers that I play with (real pro - full time drum teacher, symphonic player, also coaches marching band drum lines) made an observation once about my playing that I took to heart. He said something like, "bass players always feel t He pointed this out particularly in the case of simple songs, like this one, or for country tunes. no need to add notes (leading tones) when progressing up or down in a tune. Sometimes you just need to play the 1 - 5 without leading tones". In the case of this recording, I would play the 5 -4 -1 without walking up or down all the time.
I appreciate all the feedback.
I was nervous about posting videos of my playing because most of you guys have been playing longer than I've been alive, but I do want to get better and I was feeling like my progress was starting to plateau.
Prioritizing following the drums over guitars really resonated with me, it seems like an obvious choice but I think I lean towards the guitars for whatever reason. My drummer also has more of a tendency to play songs different than the record so I need to be better at finding those kick patterns regardless of the way I learned the line when practicing at home I suppose.
I was nervous about posting videos of my playing because most of you guys have been playing longer than I've been alive, but I do want to get better and I was feeling like my progress was starting to plateau.
Prioritizing following the drums over guitars really resonated with me, it seems like an obvious choice but I think I lean towards the guitars for whatever reason. My drummer also has more of a tendency to play songs different than the record so I need to be better at finding those kick patterns regardless of the way I learned the line when practicing at home I suppose.
IMHO the pocket is the difference between where you and the drummer place. Sometimes the bass should place the beat precisely on top of the drummers beat. Sometimes the bass leads the beat and sometimes the bass is a bit behind.
The shape of the pocket should be stable within sections of a song, but it can vary between songs. It can also vary between different sections of a song if the feel changes.
There are some challenges to this:
1. It takes time for sound to travel over distance. This called propagation delay. Propagation delay introduces small errors in perceptions. IME most musicians don't have any sort grasp on propagation delay.
2. The drummer and bass have to agree on the shape of the pocket or tempo will tend to vary. Some people prefer if the tempo breaths and some think it should be rock solid
.
A related concept in rhythmic symmetry. The idea is the placement of beats can vary within a measure. For example, sometimes the drummer may lay back a bit on beat 2.
Different people may disagree on the shape of the pocket. You and the drummer may think you are grooving hard, and the guitar player might be thinking *** are they doing. It's helpful to play with people who agree on the shape of the pocket. But two people may agree on the pocket for one song, but not the next.
The shape of the pocket should be stable within sections of a song, but it can vary between songs. It can also vary between different sections of a song if the feel changes.
There are some challenges to this:
1. It takes time for sound to travel over distance. This called propagation delay. Propagation delay introduces small errors in perceptions. IME most musicians don't have any sort grasp on propagation delay.
2. The drummer and bass have to agree on the shape of the pocket or tempo will tend to vary. Some people prefer if the tempo breaths and some think it should be rock solid
.A related concept in rhythmic symmetry. The idea is the placement of beats can vary within a measure. For example, sometimes the drummer may lay back a bit on beat 2.
Different people may disagree on the shape of the pocket. You and the drummer may think you are grooving hard, and the guitar player might be thinking *** are they doing. It's helpful to play with people who agree on the shape of the pocket. But two people may agree on the pocket for one song, but not the next.
It’s a good point. We would probably sound a lot better if I played only the root notes but completely locked in.
Yeah man! We love that song, and the Refreshments are from AZ where I play so a lot of people remember seeing them playing around town back in the day. Roger Klein still plays around here from time to time.
I've found a Live rendition of "Blue on Black."
Here is the bass-line played along with the drums.
I've removed any talking from that track - just Music.
And here is the video.
This is excellent - really good example of playing right on the beat, simple bass line but perfect time and tone. What I've learned over my 50 yrs of playing is that is 90% of what bands need us to do as bass players. We are the anchor. If there's room for other stuff, great - but we're there to make the band sound great.
