Amp Heads vs Components?

[walterw]

in pursuit of maximum bang for minimum buck i've always just used my sansamp Bass driver or VTDI on my pedalboard as "my sound", into a power amp pushing cabs.

not necessarily a "rack component" thing, i just stuffed my QSC PLX3002 in a 2-space box that sits on the cabs

 

[J Wilson]

I ran component rigs in the 80's. Prior to the coming of dedicated bass brands like SWR and Trace Elliott, few manufacturers offered serious bass gear past a few things like the Mesa 400 or some of the Acoustic gear. Otherwise it was a selection of 200w h ads or combos with 70's speakers/cabinets. This was the end of the days where bass amps were extra revenue lines, basically warmed over guitar amps with 'bass cabinets'. Fender sold the same Dual Showman bins for guitar OR bass. This sort of thing was common.

After a few tries, I settled onto the best rig I ever owned:

Yamaha PB-1 bass preamps
Yamaha P2201 stereo power amp
2-JBL Cabaret single 15's.

Clean, big, never ran out of steam or would even think of distorting. You simply turned up, and it would just get louder. No gain induced tone change, no out of power sag, it was almost surreal how deep it's lungs were. And despite being all SS, a very nice musical tone.

This was a HUGE difference over off the shelf bass rigs of their day, night and day better by several multiples at least. The P series Yamaha amps were landmarks, the PB is still traded around today, and JBL hit a home run with the Cabaret cabinets.

But that was 40 years ago.

Today, the improvements in amps, speakers, and cabinets are way past anything we could have dreamed of then. Mesa, Genzler, and Mr Bergantino's wonderful gear simply eliminated the need for my old rig for less money, far less weight, and and control and tone-shaping we'd have never imagined.

Look at it this way: Andy's 2-channel Subway head and TWO Subway 215's weigh less than my old Peavey 215BW cabinet by itself, and the Yamaha couldn't make 800w or go home in a shoulder bag.

 

[Wasnex]

Essentially I was just responding to FastSlappers comment saying that if your speakers can handle the power of the Ultra…. and just wanted to make sure players realize you don't have to have a high powered speaker to enjoy the benefits of a high powered, high headroom amp. I didn't mean it to come across as a marketing post, just an informative post so that no one is afraid of any amp with a power output that exceeds their speakers power rating. It's like saying I don't know if I can buy a car that can go 100MPH if I'm going to just use it for city driving. I've had more emails than I care to remember regarding this very topic. Power, headroom, speaker rating, etc. When I got called out for marketing BS it caught me off guard and I managed to take this thread away from its intended subject matter. Clearly not my intent and my apologies for doing so. So back to your regularly scheduled program!;-)

My feeling is it can be relatively safe to use an over-powered amp if the speaker can safely play loud enough and the user applies a bit of of common sense. However, you can't always rely on your ears to hear when the speaker is over its limit. Some speakers sound great right up to the point where they go silent.

Perhaps a more apt simile: It's like driving a car with a top speed of 150MPH riding on T-rated tires. For context T-rated tires are designed for speeds up to 118MPH. You can safely drive the car around town, but it probably won't work out well if you go on the autobahn and try to hit 150MPH.

 

[Jim Bergantino]

My feeling is it can be relatively safe to use an over-powered amp if the speaker can safely play loud enough and the user applies a bit of of common sense. However, you can't always rely on your ears to hear when the speaker is over its limit. Some speakers sound great right up to the point where they go silent.

Perhaps a more apt simile: It's like driving a car with a top speed of 150MPH riding on T-rated tires. For context T-rated tires are designed for speeds up to 118MPH. You can safely drive the car around town, but it probably won't work out well if you go on the autobahn and try to hit 150MPH.

Your points are valid and well taken but do not really mirror my experiences over the last 24+ years of designing and manufacturing bass amps and cabs. Maybe it's because the type of woofers I use are capable of handling the types of power our amps and other similar amps are producing. But I've actually had more issues with lesser powered amps early on than any high powered amps such as Crest CA9's, which I recommended often and have had no known speaker issues with. I'm not sure where the answer lies here, but I've always felt you can damage a speaker easier driving a lower powered amp into clipping (where there's much more power delivered than the ratings, especially if square waving the amp) than a more powerful amp running clean, unclipped power, at lower power levels. When an amp runs out of headroom, but the player needs more volume, they tend to turn up only to get a higher powered, distorted sound, whose power can actually exceed that of a higher powered amp running clean. With a higher powered amp, you can typically get your desired tone and volume with less power than a lower powered amp run into clipping. In other words, I'd take an 8 cylinder engine, every day of the week and twice on Sundays regardless of where I'm driving! ;-}
JMO and IME of course, but your experiences and others may differ. I do however appreciate you sharing your thoughts, and as I said earlier on, they are all valid points.

 

[5_4]

J Wilson, You pretty much hit the nail on the head for why I went the amp/preamp route and most likely many others also. We forget that in the 60's/70's that there were nowhere near the choices that are available today (at least I forget; I'm old).

 

[5_4]

Mr. Jim Bergantino, 'Happy you joined this thread because it gives me an opportunity to tell you how much I have enjoyed your cabs. I have a 2x10 and 1x15 from maybe 10-15 years ago (memory fades). I mainly use the 2x10 with a Mesa M-Pulse 360 and am amazed how big the sound is; even outdoors. I just donated the 1x15 to a music school and expect they will get a a lot of use out of it. Full disclosure, I painted over the green grills; first black then light tan (I needed more reflected light on stage so I could see things) but would get comments on my bass sound when I played out. I just said, "Bergantino baby" and pointed to the cab. Thanks for creating such a great line if cabs. Hats off!

 

[Jim Bergantino]

Mr. Jim Bergantino, 'Happy you joined this thread because it gives me an opportunity to tell you how much I have enjoyed your cabs. I have a 2x10 and 1x15 from maybe 10-15 years ago (memory fades). I mainly use the 2x10 with a Mesa M-Pulse 360 and am amazed how big the sound is; even outdoors. I just donated the 1x15 to a music school and expect they will get a a lot of use out of it. Full disclosure, I painted over the green grills; first black then light tan (I needed more reflected light on stage so I could see things) but would get comments on my bass sound when I played out. I just said, "Bergantino baby" and pointed to the cab. Thanks for creating such a great line if cabs. Hats off!

Thank you for your very kind post. Made my Sunday!;-)

 

[agedhorse]

My experience is that high powered amps when combined with unrealistic expectations, lapses in good judgement or accidents are responsible for far more speaker damage than smaller amps. I'm talking about both short term damage as well as long term cumulative damage. If you drive a higher powered amp to the point of clipping, speakers rated (in RMS metrics) at less than the RMS rating of the amp are likely to suffer... maybe not immediately but certainly long term.

Speaker power ratings are generally thermal ratings, yet bass speaker damage is almost always mechanical in nature. Speaker mechanical power handling is usually less than the thermal rating, sometimes much less.

 

[Jim Bergantino]

My experience is that high powered amps when combined with unrealistic expectations, lapses in good judgement or accidents are responsible for far more speaker damage than smaller amps. I'm talking about both short term damage as well as long term cumulative damage. If you drive a higher powered amp to the point of clipping, speakers rated (in RMS metrics) at less than the RMS rating of the amp are likely to suffer... maybe not immediately but certainly long term.

Speaker power ratings are generally thermal ratings, yet bass speaker damage is almost always mechanical in nature. Speaker mechanical power handling is usually less than the thermal rating, sometimes much less

My only point in all this is not to drive a more powerful amp to beat a speaker into submission, but to benefit from a higher power, more dynamic amp to enjoy playing a given speaker at lower volumes and be able to enjoy a full, rich, and effortless tone and response. Just want to make sure I make clear I'm not expecting or suggesting anyone would need or use a full 2000watts into any reasonable sized bass cab. I just want players to enjoy a tone, a feel and a responsiveness not possible, IMO with lesser powered amps at similar volumes. It's all about the dynamic response and full effortless tone that I am promoting when I talk about the extra power and headroom. It's something you really can't measure, but you can certainly experience.
That's why I always use car engine analogies to power amps. Anyone who's driven an 8 cylinder understands what I am getting at. When you hit the accelerator on an 8 cylinder vs a six or 4 cylinder, there's no comparison to how they respond. Doesn't mean you're going faster overall, just how quick and effortless you get there. Same with amp power and headroom.

 

[agedhorse]

If you use the power, it's no longer headroom... that's the issue. Most players struggle with too much power and unrealistic expectations or accidents. It happens all the time, I see it (not necessarily with our speakers) but when one our bigger amps get used with a lower powered speaker it does become a problem. I also saw it in the pro audio world, from the "more power is always better" crowd, the income from my (mostly pro audio) recone business paid for a good part of one of my kid's education!

 

[Jim Bergantino]

If you use the power, it's no longer headroom... that's the issue. Most players struggle with too much power and unrealistic expectations or accidents. It happens all the time, I see it (not necessarily with our speakers) but when one our bigger amps get used with a lower powered speaker it does become a problem. I also saw it in the pro audio world, from the "more power is always better" crowd, the income from my (mostly pro audio) recone business paid for a good part of one of my kid's education!

At some point you have to trust that the user understands their gear and knows how to use it. If they don't, maybe I'll be lucky enough for them to pay for my retirement since my son has long graduated from college!;-). But I'm honestly not counting on it because I I have complete faith in our customers. Just like I trust a reasonably good and experienced driver can easily handle the extra power of an 8 cylinder and not hit the car in front of them. And if they do drive into the car in front of them they probably would have done it with a 4 or 6 cylinder engine. Like the expression says "The difference between stupidity and genius is genius has its limits"!;-).
Anyways, I think we should let this thread go back to its intended topic. But I would just like to end by saying that I didn't design our Ultra amp so our customers can play at extreme volume levels, I designed it so they can hear themselves better at lower volume levels. I know it sounds like a bit of an oxymoron, but that was our intent and what are customers are experiencing. As always I appreciate and enjoy our discussions.

 

[Ric Vice]

I once had a separates system, but the GR AT Cube Acoustic. Is so convenient and powerful that there's no need for separates. I own the Grace Felix and Powered MAS cabinets, great sound but not nearly as

convenient as theGR Bass AT Cube Acoustic.

 

[vlsmith]

Appreciate the kind words and happy to hear you're enjoying the Ultra. Despite its high power rating, it's equally at home with lower power rated speakers, and at bedroom volume levels too. It's effortless heft and immediacy will allow you to be heard and felt at lower volume levels than even the lower power heads. I can't imagine ever designing another amp after Ultra. It's everything I ever hoped for in a Class D light weight amp. And all the added built in features such as the Drive and VRC truly shine thru with the Ultra's "limitless" headroom and voicing.

I am new here, but planning to upgrade my rig with the NXT 212 and the Ultra. My fear was that, with such high power from the Ultra, I'd only ever be working in the bottom 40% of the volume and maybe lose some precise adjustment because of that. But your post speaks to that. I plan to use this combo as my only system. Thoughts? Thanks.

 

[Jim Bergantino]

I am new here, but planning to upgrade my rig with the NXT 212 and the Ultra. My fear was that, with such high power from the Ultra, I'd only ever be working in the bottom 40% of the volume and maybe lose some precise adjustment because of that. But your post speaks to that. I plan to use this combo as my only system. Thoughts? Thanks.

My only thoughts to you are enjoy and get ready to experience a bass rig you've never experienced before!;-)

 

[Wasnex]

I am new here, but planning to upgrade my rig with the NXT 212 and the Ultra. My fear was that, with such high power from the Ultra, I'd only ever be working in the bottom 40% of the volume and maybe lose some precise adjustment because of that. But your post speaks to that. I plan to use this combo as my only system. Thoughts? Thanks.

As long as the NXT212 can easily play louder than you need and you don't do something stupid, the cab will probably be fine.

It's a 4 ohm cab rated for 800W with a 104dB 2.83V/1m sensitivity rating. 2.83V at 4 ohms is 2W. To get the 1W sensitivity rating just subtract 3dB and you get 101dB 1W/1m. Calculated SPL at 800W is 10log(800) + 101 = ~130dB. IME this should be plenty headroom for most people .

Where you could possibly get into trouble is if you try force the cab to put out really heavy lows. The amp will be happy to feed the drivers more power than they can handle, and at some point they will run out of excursion and start to destroy themselves. So you need to use a bit of common sense, discretion, and restraint. No turning up the amp to satisfy your curiosity about exactly how loud the rig can play. Doing this will be a good recipe for destroying drivers.

 

[Al Kraft]

I have not played the Ultra, but have doubt it is as spectacular as all the Bergantino products I have played and owned.

I wanted to offer a thought from an aviation perspective relative to systems that have the inherent ability to operate outside their design performance envelope with potentially catastrophic results. In the aviation world we often have capabilities that need to be used judiciously and appropriately by the operator. In some cases we have control laws in fly-by-wire systems that limit how the aircraft will respond and we have things like weight-on-wheels switches that limit or prevent certain things from happening either on the ground or in the air.

However, at the end of the day, it's the operator who is responsible for keeping aircraft out of operating conditions that would be deleterious or catastrophic. The greater the pleasure of operating an aircraft with a very high thrust to weight ratio and/or an exceptional aerodynamic performance, the easier it often is for someone to get into an out of limits situation that may not be recoverable or will overstress the aircraft to the point of structural failure.

Regardless of the machine in question, IME the higher the performance capabilities, the more important it is for the operator to be on top of their game. As a final thought, it is also easy for an operator to fall behind the power curve on a marginally capable system (or aircraft) especially at its operating limits and suffer equally devastating results.

Are bass amps and cabs and the instrumentalist playing them all that different?

 

[Jim Bergantino]

I have not played the Ultra, but have doubt it is as spectacular as all the Bergantino products I have played and owned.

I wanted to offer a thought from an aviation perspective relative to systems that have the inherent ability to operate outside their design performance envelope with potentially catastrophic results. In the aviation world we often have capabilities that need to be used judiciously and appropriately by the operator. In some cases we have control laws in fly-by-wire systems that limit how the aircraft will respond and we have things like weight-on-wheels switches that limit or prevent certain things from happening either on the ground or in the air.

However, at the end of the day, it's the operator who is responsible for keeping aircraft out of operating conditions that would be deleterious or catastrophic. The greater the pleasure of operating an aircraft with a very high thrust to weight ratio and/or an exceptional aerodynamic performance, the easier it often is for someone to get into an out of limits situation that may not be recoverable or will overstress the aircraft to the point of structural failure.

Regardless of the machine in question, IME the higher the performance capabilities, the more important it is for the operator to be on top of their game. As a final thought, it is also easy for an operator to fall behind the power curve on a marginally capable system (or aircraft) especially at its operating limits and suffer equally devastating results.

Are bass amps and cabs the instrumentalist playing them all that different?

I think one's eardrums will keep anything catastrophic from happening!;-)

 

[J Wilson]

All of this mirrors my experience:

I'd FAR rather have the proverbial 'big amp turned up to 3' and it is easily controlling the speakers and tone is constant and everything's just cruising. . . . instead of 'too little amp' pegged at 10, fighting to keep up, speakers getting fed breaking up signal, tone gone, distorting (till it folds up . . .), no real control, and we're heading into a crash.

Been there, done that. Dreadful, makes for a long night.

 

[Al Kraft]

I think one's eardrums will keep anything catastrophic from happening!;-)

...same could be said of changing altitude too rapidly!

 

[agedhorse]

I think one's eardrums will keep anything catastrophic from happening!;-)

You underestimate the degree of hearing (and judgement) loss in some players

...same could be said of changing altitude too rapidly!

Like they say, every plane that goes up will make a landing. Some landings are just more destructive than others…