Ampeg Brand Flatwounds? Any info appreciated!

[GIBrat51]

Okay...
The person you should certainly talk to, is @Bruce Johnson, the official, Ampeg-approved Keeper of All Things Ampeg. He builds approved, dead-on copies of Ampeg basses; has all of Ampeg's records, re their basses; and has probably repaired every original Ampeg bass that still exists. He is a very frequent poster in the "Ampeg and other Scroll Headstock Basses" thread. He will probably know everything there is to know about those strings...
As for me? Sorry, but... I'm still around. There was some recent minor trouble with me being able to log on to TB, but... all fixed now.

 

[TwototheValley]

Many thanks for the pointer, much appreciated. I’ll be keen to see if he has anything to add!

 

[TroyK]

I just ran into him at the market. He wanted me to tell you String Them Up!

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Hello Nick;

Well, my expertise on Ampeg basses is from the '60's and the mid-'90's. I don't know as much about their products in the '70's and '80's

Ampeg and their various owner companies never had their own string manufacturing facilities. They always bought their strings from string manufacturers, to their specs and in Ampeg packaging. In the '60's all their strings came from LaBella, E. O. Mari.

My guess is that your set of strings are from the 1970's, by the packaging. Looking at the strings, they are definitely not LaBellas, and I don't think they are from any of the other US manufacturers. They were probably made in Japan, by one of the Japanese string manufacturers. And they were probably bought and stocked for the Stud Series basses. The Stud basses were imported for only one year, 1974. And I believe that the Studs were the only bass being offered by Ampeg in the '70's. So, that's probably their vintage.

Here's a quick summary post about the Stud Series:

The Ampeg Stud series guitars and basses are from 1974. They were made for Ampeg by one of the large Japanese manufacturers (I forget which one) and sold only here in the US for less than a year. There are five models, three guitars and two basses. The guitars are the Stud, the Heavy Stud and the Super Stud. The basses are the Little Stud and the Big Stud. The styling is a mix of Fender and Gibson; Fender bodies and Gibson headstocks. I have both a Little Stud and a Big Stud in my Ampeg collection.

The construction is typical for '70's Japanese instruments. The woodworking and paint are fairly nice, but the pickups and hardware are cheezy. Both the bodies and the necks are laminated up from thin layers of mystery wood. If I remember right, the neck is 11 laminations and the body is 22 laminations! They are heavy and stiff. Mine have good sustain, but a thin weak tone from the pickups. I've heard from a few owners who have modified their Studs with better pickups, tuners, and bridges, and made them into good solid players.

As far as I know, the Studs were only available in three colors: all black, a transparent golden yellow, and a dark transparent red. We've never been able to uncover the production numbers, but it's not many. I'd guess that only a few hundred of each model total were made. They are rare, but not worth very much. Not many collectors are interested.

A TB'er in the Netherlands provided the information that the Studs were made by Tokai (Kasuga International) and were also marketed by Martin as the Sigma SBB2-8 and by Gretsch under the Dorado brand. If that helps.

 

[farace]

I have the Stud sales lit scanned to a PDF if anyone wants to see it.

 

[TwototheValley]

Hello Nick;

Well, my expertise on Ampeg basses is from the '60's and the mid-'90's. I don't know as much about their products in the '70's and '80's

Ampeg and their various owner companies never had their own string manufacturing facilities. They always bought their strings from string manufacturers, to their specs and in Ampeg packaging. In the '60's all their strings came from LaBella, E. O. Mari.

My guess is that your set of strings are from the 1970's, by the packaging. Looking at the strings, they are definitely not LaBellas, and I don't think they are from any of the other US manufacturers. They were probably made in Japan, by one of the Japanese string manufacturers. And they were probably bought and stocked for the Stud Series basses. The Stud basses were imported for only one year, 1974. And I believe that the Studs were the only bass being offered by Ampeg in the '70's. So, that's probably their vintage.

Here's a quick summary post about the Stud Series:

The Ampeg Stud series guitars and basses are from 1974. They were made for Ampeg by one of the large Japanese manufacturers (I forget which one) and sold only here in the US for less than a year. There are five models, three guitars and two basses. The guitars are the Stud, the Heavy Stud and the Super Stud. The basses are the Little Stud and the Big Stud. The styling is a mix of Fender and Gibson; Fender bodies and Gibson headstocks. I have both a Little Stud and a Big Stud in my Ampeg collection.

The construction is typical for '70's Japanese instruments. The woodworking and paint are fairly nice, but the pickups and hardware are cheezy. Both the bodies and the necks are laminated up from thin layers of mystery wood. If I remember right, the neck is 11 laminations and the body is 22 laminations! They are heavy and stiff. Mine have good sustain, but a thin weak tone from the pickups. I've heard from a few owners who have modified their Studs with better pickups, tuners, and bridges, and made them into good solid players.

As far as I know, the Studs were only available in three colors: all black, a transparent golden yellow, and a dark transparent red. We've never been able to uncover the production numbers, but it's not many. I'd guess that only a few hundred of each model total were made. They are rare, but not worth very much. Not many collectors are interested.

A TB'er in the Netherlands provided the information that the Studs were made by Tokai (Kasuga International) and were also marketed by Martin as the Sigma SBB2-8 and by Gretsch under the Dorado brand. If that helps.

Thanks so much…interesting stuff. If the strings were marketed in the US at for the same limited time as the Stud basses, it would explain why they’re so rarely encountered.

Now the rabbit-hole just got deeper. Japanese flatwounds??? I’m aware they do exist, for example see this thread:

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/moon-5-string-flatwounds.1437643/

…..but were they available that early?

 

[Bruce Johnson]

I have the Stud sales lit scanned to a PDF if anyone wants to see it.

Hey Bob;

Does that Stud sales ad use the red and orange Ampeg logo? I don't remember. I'm pretty sure that logo is from the early '70's. I'd have to dig out The Book to check. I'm sure it's shown in there.

 

[farace]

Hey Bob;

Does that Stud sales ad use the red and orange Ampeg logo? I don't remember. I'm pretty sure that logo is from the early '70's. I'd have to dig out The Book to check. I'm sure it's shown in there.

Hey Bruce,

I’ll go dig it out. Fortunately, finding the scanned PDF should be easier than putting my hands on the actual paper at the moment. But it’s on my desktop computer in the other room, so I’ll run in there in a few and find it.

Did you see the scan of the Ampeg Accessories catalog I posted earlier in this thread? The string set is listed in there, along with a lot of other interesting stuff.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Did you see the scan of the Ampeg Accessories catalog I posted earlier in this thread? The string set is listed in there, along with a lot of other interesting stuff.

Ah, okay. I think that confirms that these strings are from the mid-70's and were intended as replacements for the Studs. And I'm sure they came from Tokai or their string manufacturer in Japan.

I still have a Big Stud and a Little Stud in my Ampeg bass collection.

 

[farace]

Ah, okay. I think that confirms that these strings are from the mid-70's and were intended as replacements for the Studs. And I'm sure they came from Tokai or their string manufacturer in Japan.

I still have a Big Stud and a Little Stud in my Ampeg bass collection.

I have a Little Stud, badly defretted by a previous owner. Eventually my intent is to saw out the filling and re-fret the neck.

If I remember correctly, the back of the pickup is stamped Maxon, who manufactured effect pedals for Ibanez.

 

[farace]

Attached is the "Ampeg Electric Guitars" sales lit PDF. Also included is a price sheet from January 1975.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Attached is the "Ampeg Electric Guitars" sales lit PDF. Also included is a price sheet from January 1975.

Thanks, Bob!

Oh, my eyes!!!! Those colors! That was 1975. We were there. I personally skipped the Disco era and concentrated on Prog Rock and Heavy Metal.

And the Big Stud was $340 with case. That sounds kind of expensive for that time. Weren't Fenders under $500 in 1975?

 

[TwototheValley]

Okay,

Some follow-up info based on discussions with a few people and a fair bit of background research of my own.

I’m not convinced these aren’t strings from a US manufacturer. Here’s my reasoning:

The gauges listed for the set are shared by only 3 other makers of that era: Darco (when they were still made by D’Addario family members before they were bought out by Martin and production moved to Mexico), Vinci, and D’Aquisto.

At least Vinci and D’Aquisto were known to make strings for brand names and private labels.

Darco and the part of that company which became the embryonic D’Addario brand produced string packaging for quite a few US string makers (including GHS). The packaging for these strings is clearly made by them (both the envelopes and plastic sleeve are identical to Darco New Yorkers, for example). As noted, that doesn’t mean the strings are made by Darco, since US string makers such as Ernie Ball would place orders for print runs of packaging from Darco. That said, I’m not sold on the idea of Ampeg sourcing Japanese strings and then repackaging them (plus I cannot locate any concrete info regarding flatwounds made in Japan, although I have contacts investigating).

D’Addario acquired string winding machines from Vinci to produce their early strings (and subsequently improved on them), which could account for the similar gauges, but allegedly dispensed with the silks.

Plus, we also have Ampeg roundwounds with a different winding length (37.5 inches ball to taper) but the same packaging, with burgundy/maroon silk at both ends and silver balls (they look a lot like early GHS Bass Boomers).

The ball ends are steel, but chrome plated brass.

So then, flats and rounds from the early to mid 70’s, with silver balls, silk at both ends and a fairly unique set of gauges….personally I suspect these are either made by Vinci or D’Aquisto (since both feature in writings from that period as producing flatwound and roundwound strings with those gauges, plus the D’Aquisto has a .102 E the same as the Ampeg roundwound set (I measured this myself with digital calipers). I can’t see listings for early Darco bass roundwounds, and D’Addario introduced XL “rounds” in 1975.

Sadly, there are very few accurate and reliable records from this period. Nevertheless, it’s been fun, and frustrating, exploring leads.

Is @Jon Moody still around?

 

[farace]

Okay,

Some follow-up info based on discussions with a few people and a fair bit of background research of my own.

I’m not convinced these aren’t strings from a US manufacturer. Here’s my reasoning:

The gauges listed for the set are shared by only 3 other makers of that era: Darco (when they were still made by D’Addario family members before they were bought out by Martin and production moved to Mexico), Vinci, and D’Aquisto.

At least Vinci and D’Aquisto were known to make strings for brand names and private labels.

Darco and the part of that company which became the embryonic D’Addario brand produced string packaging for quite a few US string makers (including GHS). The packaging for these strings is clearly made by them (both the envelopes and plastic sleeve are identical to Darco New Yorkers, for example). As noted, that doesn’t mean the strings are made by Darco, since US string makers such as Ernie Ball would place orders for print runs of packaging from Darco. That said, I’m not sold on the idea of Ampeg sourcing Japanese strings and then repackaging them (plus I cannot locate any concrete info regarding flatwounds made in Japan, although I have contacts investigating).

D’Addario acquired string winding machines from Vinci to produce their early strings (and subsequently improved on them), which could account for the similar gauges, but allegedly dispensed with the silks.

Plus, we also have Ampeg roundwounds with a different winding length (37.5 inches ball to taper) but the same packaging, with burgundy/maroon silk at both ends and silver balls (they look a lot like early GHS Bass Boomers).

The ball ends are steel, but chrome plated brass.

So then, flats and rounds from the early to mid 70’s, with silver balls, silk at both ends and a fairly unique set of gauges….personally I suspect these are either made by Vinci or D’Aquisto (since both feature in writings from that period as producing flatwound and roundwound strings with those gauges, plus the D’Aquisto has a .102 E the same as the Ampeg roundwound set (I measured this myself with digital calipers). I can’t see listings for early Darco bass roundwounds, and D’Addario introduced XL “rounds” in 1975.

Sadly, there are very few accurate and reliable records from this period. Nevertheless, it’s been fun, and frustrating, exploring leads.

Is @Jon Moody still around?

Did you notice that in the Ampeg Accessories catalog, two pages after where the Ampeg bass strings are listed, there are D’Aquisto strings listed? Both flatwound sets are the same gauges. I notice that at least one set of guitar strings are running the same as well (I didn’t look at all of them). The fact that the D’Aquisto strings are listed in the Ampeg catalog doesn’t prove anything, but at least suggests that Ampeg had a relationship with D’Aquisto.

 

[TwototheValley]

Did you notice that in the Ampeg Accessories catalog, two pages after where the Ampeg bass strings are listed, there are D’Aquisto strings listed? Both flatwound sets are the same gauges. I notice that at least one set of guitar strings are running the same as well (I didn’t look at all of them). The fact that the D’Aquisto strings are listed in the Ampeg catalog doesn’t prove anything, but at least suggests that Ampeg had a relationship with D’Aquisto.

Yes indeed, which is where I found the gauges of the roundwounds to compare.

If they were produced by D’Aquisto, I wonder what accounts for the price difference? If you were perusing that catalog back in the day, why would you choose the D’Aquisto set, since on paper it appears identical. Also, why would Ampeg include both in the catalog?

Unless the Ampeg ones are made by Vinci….

 

[TwototheValley]

Well, after a bit of searching, it appears the later history of Vinci strings and their relationship with D’Aquisto is as follows (quotes snipped from various forums, apologies to original posters):

“I thought it was Vinci who helped develop the modern winding machine, but that many other companies use the same winding machine. And really the more important factor to the Vinci sound has to do with the particular alloy and plating of the wound strings. I think that's very central the the "sound".”

“Vinci strings were supposed to have a higher iron content on the wrapped strings to produce a hotter output.”

“That's what old Mr Vinci & others told me too. I'd speak with them a bit at NAMM shows in the 1980's & maybe early 90's. They said some of (or most of, I don't remember) the other string winding companies used machines that they made. I had a few dozen sets & have a couple left & some singles, plus a set or 2 of bass strings if anyone's interested. They sounded great to me back then. Yes I think they went out of business, then a few years ago I saw the brand again, but it was just the name being used by another company & the strings were sourced differently.”

“A friend was told that these recent last days of Vinci branded strings were actually sourced by D'Addario, and weren't really Vinci's”

…and this quote from Tony Rice when interviewed years ago:

“I started using strings specially made for me, made by D'Aquisto. I had been using the Vinci strings. It was the best in the world and I really liked them. The company disappeared when the president, Tom Vinci,retired [I think Vinci still exists]. When that happened, Dan Duffy who
was the manager at Vinci, moved to D'Aquisto as the general manager. He called me up one day and I asked him if he could make a nickel-wound
steel string. A few months later, he sent me a set and it was a really wonderful string. I mean, nothing ever sounded that good. It's wound with
nickel, not bronze. The gauge goes 0.013, 0.017, 0.026, 0.035, 0.045, and 0.057. It feels good to touch and the sound is gorgeous.”

It seems Dan Duffy would have been well placed to provide further comment, but he passed away around a decade ago.

Consequently, I think the trail goes cold at this point, unless anyone is sitting on other factoids which may be relevant.

 

[TroyK]

I don't know, I found these quotes to be really interesting:

“That's what old Mr Vinci & others told me too. I'd speak with them a bit at NAMM shows in the 1980's & he said I should string 'um up!...

…and this quote from Tony Rice when interviewed years ago:

“You should really string that **** up, man! What's the deal?”

...

 

[Swerve]

$14.50 in 1975 would be about $85 today. Those were not cheap flats!

I really want to hear them strung up on a P bass, or any bass really. Fascinating stuff.

 

[TwototheValley]

Yeah, I’m working on trying to justify another string-holding device to facilitate that…..

 

[TwototheValley]

High tension bridge cables….and for the record, I’m a La Bella guy who has Jamerson gauges on another P. The tension on these is extreme.

Grabby, minimal excursion. Relatively low output. Lots of initial clank and metallic overtones, so they remind me of Chromes or EB Cobalts. E string is initially boomy relative to the rest but is settling somewhat after a few weeks. Roll off the tone knob and they have MASSIVE low end (almost overpowering). They sound GREAT with overdrive/distortion with a pick or fingerstyle, but fatigue soon sets in for me….I like some fight/pushback in my strings (which is why I’m not a TI person), but not this much.

For period-correct authenticity I put them on my ‘71 P, but given it has a jazz neck I’m concerned about the tension, so I’ve taken them off and put the quarter rounds back on. I may try them on another one of the herd in future.