Good luck, with competing I mean.
Remember to set the gain properly, just in case. Comp, Gain and Master all the way down, set gain, THEN dial in compressor. Master volume to taste.
5sg.
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Ampeg PF350/500 Part V
- Thread starter Chef
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Good luck, with competing I mean.
Remember to set the gain properly, just in case. Comp, Gain and Master all the way down, set gain, THEN dial in compressor. Master volume to taste.
5sg.
When my PF500 was my main amp, I never used to set the gain etc as advised, I just set it as I would any other amp and never had a cut out, lucky I guess 
I think you may have to turn the gain and volume right up to compete with two 100 watt Marshall guitars and loud drummer, my PF500 was not quite powerful enough for all occasions with a single guitar using a Blackstar 45 watt tube amp and moderate drummer, that was using the amp with a Barefaced Super Twelve which is known to be a loud cab .
I think you may have to turn the gain and volume right up to compete with two 100 watt Marshall guitars and loud drummer, my PF500 was not quite powerful enough for all occasions with a single guitar using a Blackstar 45 watt tube amp and moderate drummer, that was using the amp with a Barefaced Super Twelve which is known to be a loud cab .
When my PF500 was my main amp, I never used to set the gain etc as advised, I just set it as I would any other amp and never had a cut out, lucky I guess
*shrug* ... I had mine cut out a couple times at a couple practices/jam sessions (both cabs, 4ohm load), so I emailed Ampeg and the tech recommended that method. I've been setting up that way ever since (even with one cab) and haven't had any cutout issues since.
I don't remember seeing any 100% confirmation on this, but some of us believe the control knobs have tapered sweeps on the PF500. Example: with the volume knob in particular, turning between off and 12:00 sees moderate change, but it starts getting exponentially louder when you get into the 1:00-2:00 range.
My funk band has 5-6 horns, guitar, keys, drums and two vocalist (with small PA support). I only bring one PF cab and have never needed more power/volume, and I don't feel like I'm pushing the amp much at all.
Funk band standard(ish) settings:
Comp: 9:30
Gain: 1:00 (with my Jazz V)
Bass: 2:00
Mid: 12:00
Treble: 11:00
Ultra Hi: off
Ultra Lo: on
Master: 12:00-1:00
5sg.
shredhead68 said:
You will be seriously under powered and even if you can keep up you will have no headroom to spare. Not a good situation. I would keep an ear out for clipping on your rig. Clipping causes heat on the speaker voice coils and that heat has to go somewhere. Usually goes away when the voice coils melt. That's providing the amp doesn't cut out or go into protect mode shutdown.
Well my outdoor gig for Sat night turned into an indoor show thanks to the weather, but the PF500 not only held its own but stood out nicely. I put my little box fan blowing on it to make sure it didn't overheat and set the gain properly and rocked it out. I was listening to the recording and thought "man that bass sounds good". just thought I'd share a positive story on here.
Saturday I had an outdoor gig (under a tent, anyway) by a pool and in the rain -- serious humidity, temps in the 70s. My PF-500 was hitting the red just a bit as I played, and it did just fine for 4 hours. I gotta say, I was nervous the whole time because of the fault issue, but I didn't pull back any. I have to know if it's going to do the job. So far so good!
"Good luck, with competing I mean. Remember to set the gain properly, just in case. Comp, Gain and Master all the way down, set gain, THEN dial in compressor. Master volume to taste. 5sg."
Thanks. Yeah, I have always used this same approach and have never had an issue.
"You will be seriously under powered and even if you can keep up you will have no headroom to spare. Not a good situation. I would keep an ear out for clipping on your rig. Clipping causes heat on the speaker voice coils and that heat has to go somewhere. Usually goes away when the voice coils melt. That's providing the amp doesn't cut out or go into protect mode shutdown."
Interesting. I'll take care and pay close attention. We rehearsed yesterday and I had no trouble hearing myself. Likely they didn't have their Marshalls dimed. This practice was indoors, not sure how diffrerent it will be playing outside.
Couple questions:
A) I thought common wisom around here for needed wattage was 5 times whatever the guitars have ?
B) Can you describe what this clipping will sound like ? Is that the breakup I hear when I push the gain and really turn the master volume up loud ?
Thanks. Yeah, I have always used this same approach and have never had an issue.
"You will be seriously under powered and even if you can keep up you will have no headroom to spare. Not a good situation. I would keep an ear out for clipping on your rig. Clipping causes heat on the speaker voice coils and that heat has to go somewhere. Usually goes away when the voice coils melt. That's providing the amp doesn't cut out or go into protect mode shutdown."
Interesting. I'll take care and pay close attention. We rehearsed yesterday and I had no trouble hearing myself. Likely they didn't have their Marshalls dimed. This practice was indoors, not sure how diffrerent it will be playing outside.
Couple questions:
A) I thought common wisom around here for needed wattage was 5 times whatever the guitars have ?
B) Can you describe what this clipping will sound like ? Is that the breakup I hear when I push the gain and really turn the master volume up loud ?
It just depends how loud the guitarists play. I have played with a pf500 and the pf210he against a 100w Marshall with a 412 cab, and it worked great simply because he didn't play too loud.
I've always found that when playing outdoors the sound tends to blow by me as it seems like it disperses quicker outside. Not as tight and well defined as on stage in a club. With PA support not so much because I can hear and feel the bass better. YMMV though.
When I was gigging steady along with two 100 watt stacks and loud drummer, I normally used a bi-amp setup with 1200 watts. Ran two cabs, a folded 18" for lows and a 610 or 412 for mids and highs. Later on when we finally had decent PA support I could get away with 800 watts and a single 2-15 or 810 cabinet because we had great side fill monitors. Honestly, I consider 800 to 1000 watts as "minimum" for playing against 100 watt guitar amps and a loud drummer. Paired with a couple of 410's or a single efficient 810 that will get you good clean stage volume with headroom left over. Of course, if you're doing death metal and using drop tuning, even that might not be enough.
With two guitars you're going to be competing for space in the mix. If the guitarist's run lots of low end on their amps, you can get lost in the mix real quick. The normal reaction is to turn up and add more lows to try and get above them but that doesn't work. This is where "mids" come in handy. Mids are your best friend. Dial them in to get cutting power and punch. There's been times when I thought my solo tone sucked because I thought it was too middy but it killed in the overall mix. There's a reason most bass amps give you a lot of controls for the mids, that's where the power and punch are.
As for the clipping thing. Don't confuse the normal bit of breakup and growl you get with the gain up a bit with clipping. If you're hearing, fuzzy, raspy, burping, farting, and your gain or limiter LED's are glowing brightly back at you and it gets worse if you try to get louder, that's clipping and it ain't good.
Here's a link from Yorkville / Traynor that talks a bit about clipping and heat buildup.
Link Removed
Fairly basic info but a good starting point for understanding things.
Always let your ears be your judge. If you're hearing a sound that's coming from your cabinet that ain't good, you need to find out why and correct it asap.
I have seen the `5 times the watts` theory before but I dont think its very accurate, my experience with guitar amps is that tube watts are very loud, my last guitar amp was a Laney LC30 with a 2x10 extension cab, only 30 watts but stupidly loud, I had a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe 40 watts which was deafening and highly penetrating, I had a Marshall 100 watt Valve-state hybrid amp with matching 4x12 cab which was nowhere near as loud as the first two, my current guitarist uses a Blackstar 45 watt tube amp which could drown out the PF500/BF Super Twelve and all my previous bass rigs (all of which were 500 watt amps), this is why I bought a Streamliner 900, I can blow him away now 
I would suggest that your two 100 watt tube Marshall friends start to use `attenuators`as you wont compete when they crank up
, I used to use a THD Hotplate on my small tube guitar amps to give the poor old bass player a chance
Basically, 500 watts can only go so far .
Its a shame amps etc are commonly rated in watts as its not representative but thats for another thread
I would suggest that your two 100 watt tube Marshall friends start to use `attenuators`as you wont compete when they crank up
, I used to use a THD Hotplate on my small tube guitar amps to give the poor old bass player a chance Basically, 500 watts can only go so far .
Its a shame amps etc are commonly rated in watts as its not representative but thats for another thread
Has JimmyM seen that article? It says underpowering can blow speakers, pretty sure he has said that's impossible. Who to trust!?
okcrum
in your chest
One PF500 slaved to another each driving two 8 ohm cabs is my fallback position there.
Never had a cut out with either of my PFs so far. I'm guessing a bad run of solder connections on the main circuit board might be a good part of the cause with those. Lead free solder fractures more easily than leaded. Couple that to gig shaking and abuse and it shows up fast. MarkBass had some troubles with that but cured them.
Dymond- said:
If you crank that underpowered amp way up you get clipping on the output and that causes heat buildup on the voice coil. That can cause damage or burn the voice coil. Been there done that many years ago! That was before I learned about more watts and having adequate headroom.
That is not underpowering if it burns up a voice coil. That is OVERpowering. It's a total myth to call that "underpowering a cab." I can plug in a 25w head into a cab rated for 500w and turn it up all the way to where it sounds like a fuzztone, and it will never blow that cab. What happens is most amps have twice their RMS wattage available for peaks, so if you have a 300w amp, clip it hard and you can be sending as much as 600w in peaks into that cab. But as long as your clipping amp doesn't exceed your cab's power handling, it can clip all day and nothing will happen to it.
NAD - PF500 w/PF210. Wanted a 15, but not in stock and from what I've read, not much difference.
All of my upcoming gigs, through sept, have backline provided. So why did I buy an amp now instead of waiting for the GK MB/MBP's to ship? I had the money and tried to talk myself into liking the "GK sound". I have LOTS of respect for RAG & GK. Great products, just not my thing. I tried the series-1 MD115 and 110 combos, but they sounded sterile and "loose" to me.
Always been an Ampeg tone guy. So I jumped in despite the fear and trepidation over the reliability. Preferred the inherent tone of the PF350, but with multiple basses plus upright, I opted for the flexibility of the 500.
Well, this rig sounds amazing! My three electrics, 82 RI Jazz, Parts-P, Casady, all sound big, warm and tubey. Upright as well. Right hand placement and attack can go from tubey warmth to tubey grind. Compressor is actually useful! Enough punch to sit in a mix well.
Bass treble and Ultra Low are tweaked accoring to overall volume and the Mid control is where the magic happens.
Casady = 10:00@2, Jazz= 2:00@3, P=9:00@2
I look forward to getting her out on the job. All setting will undoubtedly change. Gonna get a second 210 cab asap.
Of course if it fails once, i will return/repair/sell as quickly as I can. Reliability is not optional for me. But for now I will bathe in the warm blanket of tone which I enjoyed for many years with my SVT stacks.
Thanks!
=JR=
All of my upcoming gigs, through sept, have backline provided. So why did I buy an amp now instead of waiting for the GK MB/MBP's to ship? I had the money and tried to talk myself into liking the "GK sound". I have LOTS of respect for RAG & GK. Great products, just not my thing. I tried the series-1 MD115 and 110 combos, but they sounded sterile and "loose" to me.
Always been an Ampeg tone guy. So I jumped in despite the fear and trepidation over the reliability. Preferred the inherent tone of the PF350, but with multiple basses plus upright, I opted for the flexibility of the 500.
Well, this rig sounds amazing! My three electrics, 82 RI Jazz, Parts-P, Casady, all sound big, warm and tubey. Upright as well. Right hand placement and attack can go from tubey warmth to tubey grind. Compressor is actually useful! Enough punch to sit in a mix well.
Bass treble and Ultra Low are tweaked accoring to overall volume and the Mid control is where the magic happens.
Casady = 10:00@2, Jazz= 2:00@3, P=9:00@2
I look forward to getting her out on the job. All setting will undoubtedly change. Gonna get a second 210 cab asap.
Of course if it fails once, i will return/repair/sell as quickly as I can. Reliability is not optional for me. But for now I will bathe in the warm blanket of tone which I enjoyed for many years with my SVT stacks.
Thanks!
=JR=
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I never called it underpowering. I stated that when you drive an "underpowered amp" into clipping you get heat buildup. That's caused because clipping sends a square wave output going to the speaker. That applies whether you are using 25 watts or 2500 watts. You're still going to get heat buildup in the voice coils of the speaker.
I agree with you that a lower wattage amp is way less likely to damage a high quality efficient speaker mounted in a properly baffled cabinet because that speaker is designed to dissipate that heat buildup. Plus, with a low wattage amp you'll probably never exceed the Xmax or Xmech of that speaker.
There's plenty of information out there to confirm that heat buildup from amp clipping is a major factor in speaker failure. Most always caused by cranking a lower wattage amp to clipping levels and stating that it's considered that the user "underpowered" the speaker.
Like I said, Always let your ears be your judge. If it doesn't sound good, you need to find out why and correct it asap.
If that were true, nobody could amplify synths or use a fuzzbox without constantly blowing speakers.
Congrats!!
I have the PF500 and PF210HE as my rehearsal rig also and have never had an issue since I purchased it over a year ago. I've used it at a few smaller sized shows before and it's performed great. I am considering either adding an additional 210 or selling mine and opting for the PF410 if I can find one to demo.
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