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An Ignoramus Asks...

It is traditional to use the wiper terminals as outputs when there is a pickup selector switch,

It does not allow pickup blending, however, because each pot controls output impedance, so rolling either down too far will affect both pickups.
sure it does, as any les paul player will tell you; you go from "both pickups" to "mostly one pickup" up at the top of the turn, and "off" only when you totally zero one volume pot.

+1 to linear volumes helping to spread out that "blend zone", but it's still pretty touchy.
You can try using the wiper terminals as inputs, and see where that gets you.
which is how jazz basses do it (since there's no switch), with a bunch of compromises as a result.

the OP can easily test which way it's wired by turning one volume all the way off (switch in the middle) and seeing if the sound goes away entirely or not. if it goes away he has the tonally "better" LP-style wiring.
 
What walterw says above - as I understand it -confirms what Don Ayers, Stellartone/Tonestyler maestro, tells me in his reply to my query. I emailed him a couple of weeks ago and received a comprehensive reply this morning. I find what he says so clear that I'll post an edited version here - the whole email is twice this long (how can he be so helpful AND run a business?)! I trust he won't mind me sharing his observations. Ignorami the world over will be grateful, I'm sure.

DON AYERS writes:
[...]

Even though this bass [my DeArmond Starfire] features a 3-way selector switch, Fender has used the same "loudness pot" wiring as required on the Jazz Bass, which lacks a 3-way switch. This is an error.

Where there is no "Gibson-style" switch provided to combine and solo the pickups, the volume pots MUST be wired "backwards" as fader pots. All Fender Jazz basses are wired this way. The reason for the requirement is simple: with no pickup switch in the circuit, setting one pickup's volume to "off" will mute the other pickup. no matter where that volume knob is set. So, fader pot wiring is a concession to allow either pickup to be soloed, while the other is silent.
The problem is... it doesn't sound the same as "volume pot wiring", as seen in most Gibson guitars. When the pots are wired "normally", and a pickup selector switch is set in the center "both pickups" position, setting either volume knob to zero mutes the entire instrument.

Some people consider this limitation to be annoying, and prefer the J-Bass style wiring, where either volume knob can be set to zero without muting the instrument by mistake. However, this is not a simple matter of deciding how you'd like the two (or three) volume knobs to interact with each other.
"Fader pots", as wired in J-Bass and your Starfire, reduce loudness by progressively "loading" the pickup until it is eventually shorted out to produce silence. Because the individual pickups are shorted out, not the mixed output of the cable, the other pickup is free to be adjusted to any level you choose. However, there is a large downside to this operating compromise: pickups sound progressively worse as they are loaded and shorted out. As the parallel resistance on each pickup is lowered, approaching a dead short, the treble harmonics are first affected, then the mis, and then finally the bass harmonics and fundamental tones. As a result, a Fender-style "fader pot" cannot be operated AT ALL, without shifting the response and EQ shape of the pickup.

The only solution to this tonal problem with "fader pots" is to wire them "normally", as volume pots.... but this requires a 3-way selector switch, to avoid the "automatic muting issue" described above. This still maintains a potential operating error, because neither volume pot may be set to zero when the center switch position is chosen... unless you were trying to mute the guitar. But, once the player is accustomed to the benefits of a 3-way selector switch, volumes are generally left at high levels until the guitar is to be muted, and set aside on a stand.

"Volume pots" are wired in most instruments having a pickup selector switch (Stratocaster, Telecaster, Les Paul, SG, ES-335, PRS, etc) and in single pickup instruments (P-Bass, etc). The tonal benefit is significant: now, as loudness is reduced, the parallel resistive loading on the pickup remains CONSTANT... at the rating of the pot, and there is no "shorting out" of the pickup as silence is approached. Instead, the output cable to the amp is loaded down with parallel resistance, until silence is eventually reached when the volume pot on "0" completely shorts out the cable. Note that the pickups are now silent because the amp is silent.... not because they have been "loaded" or shorted out. As a result, the pickup enjoys a uniform loading at all volume settings, and tone remains very consistent from "10" down to about "2".... there is no progressive loss of treble, them mids, then bass, as volume declines. It's not a perfect system, but it's MUCH BETTER than "fader pot" wiring.

OK - if this makes sense to you, then let's plan to re-wire your dual "fader pots" as "volume pots. This will sound better, pickup blending & mixing will be improved, and a flatter response will be heard over a wider loudness range. Again, the ONLY DISADVANTAGE is that you cannot set one of the volume knobs to "0" when you select the center toggle position.

Second problem in the Fender wiring diagram:

The two tone pots are improperly-wired to the same wrong center terminals as the pickups are wired. So, when the first problem... fader vs volume pot wiring.... is remedied, the tone controls (to be discussed below) will also be wired to the correct terminals... on the left side of the pots. The CENTER terminals will be connected to the 3-way toggle switch.
Now, let's look at your options for correcting & improving your control harness:

If you will be retaining the original Fender knob assignments (recommended), the poor blending problem will be greatly improved by making the change to "volume pot wiring", described above, plus changing to 500K LINEAR TAPER volume pots. The reason why you are finding a very small angle of adjustment shifts from the "both pickups" sound directly to a "solo pickup" sound, is because your original fader pots have way too strong of an audio taper. I'll save you further boredom in describing why LINEAR pots will work better.... just consider that these are very inexpensive and will not be a wasted experiment!

[...]

So I do not have what Walter calls the "tonally 'better' LP-style wiring": With both pickups engaged I can turn either to '0' without muting both. It's looking like a volume/linear pot re-wiring is on the cards. And then...maybe...a Tonestyler or two.

I'm am learnin! So thanks, guys, for your help so far and for any other thoughts you may have.
 
From an unknown source:
Corrected:
The Secret Life of Pots
Copyright 1999 R.G. Keen

"...What is taper? It's just the ratio of the resistance already passed as the pot turns to the total resistance of the pot, described as a curve. For instance: we want to make a variable power supply with an adjustment pot that smoothly varies the voltage from one to ten volts, so we want a control that lets us do that. We have no idea whether we'll want mostly low voltages or high voltages, so we want to adjust it equally well anywhere in the range. In this case, it's most natural for the control pot to have an equal change in resistance or voltage divided per unit of rotation - we want the control to feel linear. This much of a turn is one volt, no matter whether it's near 0V or near 10V.

Volume controls are different. The human ear does not respond linearly to loudness. It responds to the logarithm of loudness. That means that for a sound to seem twice as loud, it has to be almost ten times the actual change in air pressure. For us to have a control pot that seems to make a linear change in loudness per unit of rotation, the control must compensate for the human ear's oddity and supply ever-increasing amounts of signal per unit rotation. This compensating resistance taper is accurately called a "left hand logarithmic taper" but for historical reasons has been called an audio or log pot. In these pots, the wiper traverses resistance very slowly at first, then faster as the rotation increases. The actual curve looks exponential if you plot resistance or voltage division ratios per unit of rotation.
If you used an audio/log taper pot for the control of the power supply we mentioned, the output voltage would increase very slowly at first, creeping up to maybe 10% of the final output at 50% of the pot rotation. It would then blast the other 90% in the last half of the rotation - very hard to control. Likewise, if we used a linear pot for volume control, the volume would come up dramatically in the first half of pot rotation, and then do very little change in the last half.
... As we turn the shaft, the proportion of resistance we traverse increases slowly at first, more slowly than the percentage of rotation. As we get past half the available rotation, the rate of resistance traversed speeds up as we get closer to the furthest rotation. This compensates for the human ear by increasing sound levels very slowly at first, then faster as the ear's sensitivity falls off at higher sound levels."
Some prev posts do not agree...
Maybe someone can clearly explain why the discrepancies.
In the end, it's what gets the job done right-
but, I'd sure like to know WHY.
 
So does anyone have any comments to make on Don Ayers' analysis and advice, quoted above? Is there some controversy about how this stuff works, or is he spot on?
nah, no controversy; he's exactly right, and spells it out nicely.
As the link to the wiring schematic in my first post didn't work and the later working link may have been missed, here it is again:

http://www.dearmondguitars.com/pdfs/wiring/STARFIRE_BASS_Wiring_Diagram.pdf
there it is, the dreaded "independent wiring".

reverse everything on each of the two "hot" lugs on each of the volume pots; pickup and tone pot connection to the clockwise lug, center lug going out to the switch.
 
As this may be related to the wiring of my bass(?) I'll ask it here:

When either soloed pickup is turned up full (between 8-10) I get no hum. The bass is very quiet. But when either pickup (or both if the selector switch is in the middle position) is at less than 8 I get hum - which goes when I touch metal (strings, pickup or bridge). So I'd assume a grounding problem. But why does it go away when pickup volume is between 8-10? Is this another issue associated with independent wiring?
 
That's not a grounding thing; the fact that it goes away when you touch the strings means the grounding is good.

That's electrostatic "buzz", which can be reduced by extensive shielding inside the instrument.
 
Thanks, Walter.

Could you (or any one else who knows exactly what Walter and Don Ayers are talking about) link a clear wiring schematic for the 2 vol/2 tone/3-way switch standard 'volume pot wiring' you're recommending. I wanna be sure the tech gets it right!
 
...Because I'm getting v confused! I did some googling and found a schematic or two - like this one:

lp1.gif


(Ignoring the caps and the vol kit) That, to me, looks like what we're talking about: AKA "Modern Les Paul wiring". That's what I want, no?

BUT this video:

("Les Paul Wiring - Vintage versus Modern") tells me that I LOSE treble as I turn vol down with modern wiring - which is one of the main things I thought 'standard volume pot' re-wiring was designed to avoid :confused:

What's going on? Is 'standard volume pot' wiring the same as 'modern' Les Paul wiring? Is the guy in the vid wrong and/or deaf? Have I got it all arse-over-tit?
 
you're getting into the weeds here; les paul guys go on about "modern" vs "50s" wiring, which is just about where the tone pot gets connected. the pickup still goes to the clockwise volume pot lug either way.

that diagram is fine.
 
Resurrecting this thread to clarify one point...

To get better tone and better pickup blend I'm convinced I need to re-wire from independent volume to standard Les Paul volume pot wiring. I'm also convinced that I should have linear taper vol pots rather than log/audio taper. So thanks for the advice so far. I'm planning to get this done next week.

Things is - do I have audio vol pots or not? Fender's schematic shows 'B500K' for the two vols on my bass. Wouldn't Fender use USA designations ('B' = linear and 'A' = log/audio)? Is it possible they used the European system ('A' = linear and 'B' is audio)? I have read that these Korean-made basses weren't produced for the US market. Would that make a difference? To my ears, each soloed vol pot has a smooth increase in volume from 0-10... How can I be sure what I've got?

http://www.dearmondguitars.com/pdfs/wiring/STARFIRE_BASS_Wiring_Diagram.pdf
 
you've got linear volumes; the imports i've seen all follow "B=linear", and way more imports (guitar and bass) have linear volumes than the USA ones do.

good, half the battle already won.
 
Thanks, Walter.

So if I have linear vol pots do you have any thoughts on this from Don Ayers -

...the poor blending problem will be greatly improved by...(also) changing to 500K LINEAR TAPER volume pots. The reason why you are finding a very small angle of adjustment shifts from the "both pickups" sound directly to a "solo pickup" sound, is because your original fader pots have way too strong of an audio taper.

If I've already got linear vols, it can't be the pots that's causing the problem. Is my original problem - small range of pickup blend - gonna be addressed by changing to LP vol pot wiring?

Also, can you tell me anything about my ''D500K' tone pots? I've read that 'D' is an 'in-between A and B/all-purpose' kinda pot...?

And finally...Have you ever come across the reverse 'European' labelling of pots (A = linear...)? Is this a myth?
 
it's a pretty tight range of blending regardless, but correcting the wiring will help.

yeah, "D" is a sort-of audio pot.

i haven't personally worked on any pots with the backwards labeling, i guess they don't often show up on the east coast of the US.
 
Hey HCEarwicker, have you done this mod yet? Please report back when you do, I'm very curious to hear how it turns out.

This makes a lot of sense to me - I was wondering why I was able to get a nice blended sound from the pickups on my Yahama SA (335er), which has Gibson wiring, but not from my DeA Starfire, which externally appeared to have the same wiring. Thanks to Don Ayers and walterw for explaining it.
 
Hey HCEarwicker, have you done this mod yet? Please report back when you do, I'm very curious to hear how it turns out.

This makes a lot of sense to me - I was wondering why I was able to get a nice blended sound from the pickups on my Yahama SA (335er), which has Gibson wiring, but not from my DeA Starfire, which externally appeared to have the same wiring. Thanks to Don Ayers and walterw for explaining it.

Hi hellboy,

I took the bass into the Bass Gallery in London on Tuesday. Martin Peterson tells me it should be ready tommorow. I'll let you know. What you say about your Yamaha SA is reassuring - not that I doubt Don and Walter, who've been just great. I look forward to thanking both of them again tomorrow :)
 
So I have my rewired DA Starfire back.

After an hour or so of mucking about I'm still figuring out how best to take advantage of the changes, which are all for the better...as far as I can tell so far.

First - soloed pickups: I was told that there'd be no loss of tone (treble, then mids, then bass) as the vol's turned down and that seems to be true. I say 'seems' because as the vol gets quieter, the tone gets 'quieter' too; I mean it gets less audible and that, to my aging ears, can sound like a loss of tone. But I am sure the tone doesn't drop off as rapidly and completely as it used to. It may not be dropping off at all. I guess the way to test this is to turn my amp up as I turn the vol pot down, to keep the overall volume constant. If I notice no, or very little, tone loss then all is as predicted. I haven't got round to doing that yet.

Second - middle position/both pickups. It was the absence of blending possibilities that got me thinking about changing the wiring in the first place. I can say for sure that things are now a lot better. And different. The pickups and controls are now interacting in a much more...interactive way. A little bit of bridge to give some bite to neck, or a lot; a little bit of neck to add warmth to the bridge, or a lot; roll off the bridge tone but keep neck tone full open.... I can do that stuff now and I couldn't before. So I'm happy about that. I just need to become familiar with the way things are working and get control of it - to choose the settings I like best.

But all these blending possibilities happen only at volumes less than 8/9. The new range of blend is available with dials set between about 2 and 8 - which is a pretty wide band of blending, I reckon. With either p'up at 8/9+ the other p'up also has to be at 8/9+ to get a look in (which is how things were before). This means that I have to use the amp as a master volume if I want to match pickup-blended levels with soloed p'up levels (which I'd normally have full up on the bass). But that's what an amp's for, no?

The only immediately obvious 'issue' is that - as predicted - turning either vol below 2 in the middle position mutes both p'ups. But I don't see why that's a problem. Why would I want to blend (say) 80% neck with 0% bridge??? As things now are, I can mute the bass in middle position without having to turn two knobs. Bonus!

All in all, It's like the bass has come to life. Not that it was a dud in the first place. Well worth £40 I'd say.

So may I take this opportunity to once again thank Don, Walter and all the other pundits and interested parties who've supported me through the good times and the bad and made this stupendous achievement possible. Thanks, chaps!

Any bad news/nasty surprises and I'll let you know ;) And if anyone wants to comment, whether to say 'yes, that's how it should be' or 'hmm...something wrong there', I'd be delighted to hear from you.
 
DAY TWO

Pickup blend news

Still happy. But I've noticed that in middle position the volumes of one p'up affects the volume of the other.

So for example if I have neck on 8 and bridge on 3, then flip the switch to solo the neck, the soloed neck is louder than the mixed neck+bridge - as if the bridge on 3 is pulling down the level of the neck on 8. (It's not that the neck level is pulled right down to the level of the bridge, coz if I flip to solo bridge, the bridge is very quiet, as I'd expect for vol on 3.) If I slowly crank up the (mixed) bridge the overall level of both pickups increases.

I guess this as expected for modern LP wiring and I think I like it. It makes sense to me that in the middle position all aspects of one pickup's output affects the other. Maybe this happens with independent wiring too? I never liked the independent blended sounds enough to play with them and find out.

I wonder, is this why the original Guild Starfire had a master volume - to bring the level of (some) mixed pickup blends up to the level of soloed?

Tone news

I don't think I'm losing nearly as much treble/mids/bass as I turn down vol as I did with the old independent wiring, but I'm pretty sure I lose some. The brittle, glassy highs I get between 8-10 from my flatwound strings (with fingers) through my pre-Fender SWR amp go away below 8. From 8 down I still hear top, but smoother top than between 8-10, and the tone stays pretty consisitent down to 2/silence.

All in all, very good news.

I'm very interested to hear feedback from anyone, particularly any experts, who might still be following. Confirmation/reassurance preferred ;)