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Annoying feedback

B

bass nazi

Dec 3, 2005
17
1
Carlsbad, Ca.
#1
I play bass in a classic rock band. We play lots of small bars/clubs around town.
Along with being the bassist for the band, I am also acting as the sound man.
We have a female lead/backing vocals
Male rhythm guitar lead/backing vocals
Male drummer lead/backing vocals
bass guitar
lead guitar

Our female vocalist usually stands in front of our drummer (nice view!)
I have been fighting feedback in the monitor mix for her for a year.
We don't seem to get much feedback out in the mains, but every time she asks for more volume in her monitor, I end up fighting feedback the entire show.

I have tried pushing down the faders on the QF215 whenever I see one of the lights light up, but is always seems a constant battle. And then it seems to lessen the amount of power to the monitors.

I don't seem to have as much feedback with the two male vocalists, yet occasionally I have issues with the drums ringing back through the drummers mic.

I would think the feedback killer would take care of this issue but its not.

Is there a problem with my set up? Or is there an issue with the feedback killer or the EQ?

I would be a much happier bassist if I could concentrate on my playing instead of fighting with the PA all night!

What am I doing wrong?

Our system consists of the following:

Yamaha MG16/6FX mixer
Peavey PV 231 EQ (mains)
Peavey QF 215 EQ (monitors)
DBX AFS224 feedback killer (monitors)
Peavey PV 2600 amp (mains)
Peavey PV 1500 amp (monitors)

We usually use the following mains/monitors in the following configuration:

1-Peavey 12M rhythm guitarist
1-Peavey 15M female vocalist
1-Peavey SP 112M bass and lead guitarist
1-Galaxy Hot Spot monitor drummer
2-SP 2XT mains

We have 3 SM 58's on stage for the vocalists.
We run the 2 guitars direct.
We mic the kick drum and the toms.
 
#4
When it comes to a problem singer, make sure you don't have one of those folks who backs off of the mic or sings quieter every time you turn the monitor up, insuring that s/he is never loud enough.

IME an FBX (or the blinky ID lights on a PV graphic) cannot distinguish between feedback and music. As such, they are useful for ringing the system out on a quiet stage only. Once that's done, lock the FBX filters and see how it goes.

Keep in mind when ringing out that you must duplicate the performance situation. Ringing out with an open stage (turning the level up until it rings, then EQing the ring away) may or may not apply to the performance situation. In a multi-mic situation, where the noise-makers (mouths and instruments) are using the mic at near 0 distance, ringing an open stage gets few if any of the frequencies that will feed back when a hand, face, open mouth, or reflective instrument top (or even a hat brim) are in front of the mic. In the case of the one mic bluegrass performance, the open stage is pretty close to the performance situation. But don't forget to add the missing bits: the reflective guitar top that will bounce sound from the room or monitor into the mic, the hat brim, or - ? Even once you seem to be done, when soundcheck starts you may get additional "hot" or "loose" (not feeding back, but trying to) frequencies that need attention. (Always end the soundcheck a little loud, to hunt for such spots.)
 
#5
Projectmalamute:
I am feeding from the mixing board to the EQ, from the EQ to the feedback suppressor, and from the suppressor to the amp, and then to the speakers.

Modulusman:
No, I am not sure I have the suppressor set up right.
The directions seem simple, yet they are confusing, and it seems like I am going through the same steps over and over again.
And it does not seem like I see the LED's flashing the way I would expect them to.

TimmyP:
I know what you are saying about ringing out before the performance. The problem is that when I ring out during sound check, very few people are in the places, and as we get into our show the dynamics of the rooms change due to the bodies that have come in.
I did not know that the lights can not distinguish between feedback and music. I thought that's what they were for!

I have tried moving the monitors around on stage, and turning them and the mics at different angles, but nothing seems to cure the problem.
And like I said, I really only have this issue with female vocalists (which we have had 4 different ones), our two male vocalists seem to have enough volume on their mics, and in their monitors to make them happy.

I'm afraid I might run out of hair before I figure this out!
 
#6
I have used feedback supressors before with good results but not that model. I have a dbx Ieq that has the AFS built in that works great. I looked at the owners manual for your unit and I would try using the live setting with the music high mode. If your drummer is really loud then maybe you need to move the female vocalist to a different area of the stage. Tell the drummer your sorry for wrecking his view.
 
#7
bass nazi said:
Annoying feedback
Click to expand...
ok, how about "i hate your songs and the singer's hair looks funny." is that annoying enough? :p

a big +1 to this:
TimmyP said:
When it comes to a problem singer, make sure you don't have one of those folks who backs off of the mic or sings quieter every time you turn the monitor up, insuring that s/he is never loud enough.
Click to expand...
if you check her monitor yourself, is it loud as balls compared to the guys' monitors? if so, that may be all you can do for her.

maybe if you can scrounge up another wedge and give her two, you'll get some more headroom, as you'll have more amp power and more speaker efficiency. (2 12s would be better than 2 15s for vocals.) correct me if i'm wrong timmy, but the two wedges will work best spread out and angled in, almost like "one for each ear".

a bigger amp will make things easier, and will require less EQ hacking to get some volume. this is likely the most important improvement you could make.

speaking of EQ, i've found that i get better results by not chopping up a graphic trying to "ring out" monitors. you just end up with a bad and hard-to-hear sound. i try to create a curve that sounds good, not too harsh but not too bassy (definitely kill everything below 100 on all the vocal wedges), and usually that will make folks happy.
if i have to find and kill one, maybe two feedback frequencies then ok (i rarely do in my little club world), but more than that and the tone starts to go to hell, and it's time to back the level off and stay with that.

the flatter the EQ curve, the louder the wedge will be.
 
#10
If you use an FBX (I used to, finally ditched 'em), put it first in the chain, so it sees the strongest signal possible. When ringing, I used to turn the amps down a fair bit so I had to turn the aux master up. With a hotter signal into the FBX, it was able to lock on to feedback faster.

A room full of people will be deader, helping with feedback - at least from the mains. Once you have the monitors rung out, bring the mains up. The energy that they direct onto the stage can cause feedback - which can be in the monitors, even though mains energy is the trigger (or it can be in the mains, or in both).

It sounds like she may be a candidate for IEMs. I recommend Sennheiser for the wireless, M-Audio IE-10s for buds.
 
#12
TimmyP said:
If you use an FBX (I used to, finally ditched 'em), put it first in the chain, so it sees the strongest signal possible. When ringing, I used to turn the amps down a fair bit so I had to turn the aux master up. With a hotter signal into the FBX, it was able to lock on to feedback faster.
Click to expand...

I think we sometimes underestimate the importance of gain structure when dealing with any sound reinforcement scenario.

Riis
 
#13
If she sings louder into the mic, it will come out louder in the monitors. Kinda simple, but there is a point where you can't get the monitors any louder due to physical and technological reasons. Also, when you squeek out the system make sure you have some headroom and aren't running the monitors at the point of feedback. Have someone cup the mic too when ringing out. It will make frequencies feedback that won't with an open stage and open mic.
 
#14
Thanks Timmy,

I will try putting the FBX first in the chain instead of second like I currently have it.

Walter, I do have extra monitors that we use on larger stages, so I will try using two 12's for her and see what happens.
I have done this on larger stages outdoors and have had good success, so maybe it will work indoors as well.

She is constantly complaining that she cannot hear herself that well in her monitor. So I try turning her up, but that causes the feedback (try dealing with this in the middle of a song while you are playing!).
The two guys very rarely complain about not hearing themselves. The drummer used to, but after I bought him the "hot spot" monitor, that cured that problem because it put it closer to his head.

Again, we are very rarely getting feedback out front, mostly on stage. And we very seldom have this problem when we play larger venues or outdoors.

We have discussed the IEM's, but that comes down to money, and times are tight right now.

She has a cordless mic that she has tried, but that seemed to make things worse as she moved around the stage.

I will try Timmy's idea about the chain, and see if I can further isolate her by having her on her own channel (aux 1 from the mixer to the FBX, out to the EQ channel 1, then to the amp, then to 2 12" monitors just for her).
I will put the FBX into live setting high music mode and see what happens.
I may even move her off to the side of the drummer.

It almost seems that his drums are spilling into her mic and causing some of the problems, so moving her might be a key factor.

Maybe I can move her closer to the board and have her adjust her own settings!

Thanks guys
 
#15
Couple of things I would do;
-First try to lower everybody's volume onstage as much as possible.
-Get a full parametric EQ. Maybe in exchange of one of your 231 or the FBX. You'll be able to be a lot more precise with a parametric.
- Anyone in your band has an iPhone?
Get one RTA software for iPhone , some are free , the better ones are 10-30$
-If nobody has iPhone , anyone in the band has a laptop cpu with integrated mic? (macbook ,powerbook)
Get a RTA software, lots are free.
- Then when the place is full , at the start of your first set , take 2 minutes to find and kill those feedback , you better do that than have that annoying ringing alll night. Ask her to stay close to the mike , like she is singing , and ask her to cover her ears , check on the RTA what are the ringing frequencies (iPhone or CPU) and cut them on the parametric EQ. The important thing on a parametric is the bandwidth , start by cutting the frequency as narrow as possible then get it larger if needed. Can'T do that on a Graphic EQ.
- The 2 X 12" instead of a single 15" can help in some particular situations. Try with horns inside , or outside.
- If all this fail , try to go IEM. Not all singers like 'em and it takes time get used to it.
 
#17
Full or empty isn't going to affect the monitor eq much if at all.

Many channel eq's on mixers are before the monitor sends (ie. the monitor sends are post-eq) so if you use eq on the channel and boost say the mids or HF, you can increase the potential for feedback in the monitors.

Also, another more common problem these days is counterfit SM-58's which have horrible off axis response. This can really cause feedback where everything "should" otherwise be ok.
 
#18
agedhorse said:
Full or empty isn't going to affect the monitor eq much if at all.

Many channel eq's on mixers are before the monitor sends (ie. the monitor sends are post-eq) so if you use eq on the channel and boost say the mids or HF, you can increase the potential for feedback in the monitors.

Also, another more common problem these days is counterfit SM-58's which have horrible off axis response. This can really cause feedback where everything "should" otherwise be ok.
Click to expand...

Good response! In this age of ultra cheap gear and band-aid gadgets instead of knowledge and experience, we can't always blame the muso.
 

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