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Another Firewire vs. USB question

  • Thread starter Thread starter jhan
  • Start date Start date
J

jhan

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#1
Which is better:

Audio interface into firewire / External hard drive into USB 2

or

Audio Interface into USB 2 / External Hard Drive into Firewire

I ask this because there seem to be better options for me re: an interface with Firewire, but most 7200 external hard drives use firewire, EXCEPT for the Lacie, which has firewire and usb.

Jeez, this stuff is a pain in the a__.
 
#2
Given USB has no sense of time constraints which can be disastrous for audio recording, I would put the audio on firewire. Hard drive could go on firewire as well if you like, but there shouldn't be a big issue with it being on USB as writes should be buffered.
 
#3
Cool.

Don't know much about this stuff. Do you mean I can run two things off of 1 firewire inupt at once, like a USB port, and be fine?

OliverH said:
Given USB has no sense of time constraints which can be disastrous for audio recording, I would put the audio on firewire. Hard drive could go on firewire as well if you like, but there shouldn't be a big issue with it being on USB as writes should be buffered.
Click to expand...
 
#4
well many firewire interfaces have extra firewire ports so that you can still run your harddrive. I recommend the M-audio 1814. 8 ins /4 outs works with protools and you can get them cheap. I got mine for $160 bucks on ebay. they also have lightpipe so you can daisy chain them for an additional 8ins and 8 outs.

The bad news is that the pots and jacks are pretty flimsy but the good news is down the road you can get a much better in interface with lightpipe from any manufacturer you want and it will still work with protools. plus youll have 16ins and 12 outs with out breaking the bank. then youll onl have to worry about the crappy pots if your recording more than 8 tracks.
 
#5
With USB you will hit a ceiling on how many tracks your interface can handle way before FW will.. Also if you understand computer networking and difference between a hub and switch. USB works like a hub not a very intelligent device. Where FW is a switched protocol and the devices have intelligence to manage thru-put. You can daisy-chain FW devices because each one acts like an active repeater.
 
#6
DocBop said:
With USB you will hit a ceiling on how many tracks your interface can handle way before FW will.. Also if you understand computer networking and difference between a hub and switch. USB works like a hub not a very intelligent device. Where FW is a switched protocol and the devices have intelligence to manage thru-put. You can daisy-chain FW devices because each one acts like an active repeater.
Click to expand...

So since I'm pretty much a layman as far as computers, are you saying that I won't have a problem running my recording interface and my external hard drive off of one 4 pin firewire port?
 
#8
I have run 8 channels of 16/44.1 and a Glyph FW400 HDD on the same FW bus and had plenty of throughput left over, even on my old 1.25 Ghz iBook/FW400. Depending on the FW controller you can actually get better performance that way than handing the data off to the USB controller. FW allows devices to exchange data without the controller acting as a middleman. If you had a machine (I'm assuming that this is a laptop discussion) like a MacBook with eSATA and FW, I'd try to use the eSATA for the data side. That frees up more bandwidth on the FW bus for data.

I know that other folks use USB with more confidence, but I don't run more than two channels on USB, dumping the data to the internal HDD, and never to a drive on the same USB controller. USB has failed to inspire any confidence in its ability to provide crash-proof low latency data. That said, I have done some really good stereo transfers at high resolution with a stereo USB interface (NI AK-1).
 
#9
It also depends on your platform and how much your CPU is taxed with chores other than moving audio while it's moving. Very, very generally, Windows users suffer from some FW issues that Mac users don't because of drivers that have to be written that aren't part of the system (as in OSX), yet they have somewhat less USB audio problems because of the differences in how the OSs handle it. As well as all the aforementioned info about how data is handled differently by them. USB was developed as a peripheral bus, to move data and just get it there as fast as it (and the CPU) could, eventually. Firewire was specifically created to move audio and video with their attendant differences from other data. It's basically anecdotal, but as a Mac user FW has always been bulletproof for me, while USB2 just doesn't function "as advertised", and I certainly can't have hardly anything else going on with the CPU. I have PC friends who don't have the USB hatred I do yet can't make the simplest FW interface work up to spec.

So it depends on a lot. Plus, you can get ANY interface on ANYthing really. Skip LaCie. Lots of dead LaCie power supplies in their external drives. I would recommend checking out Other World Computing http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/firewire/

and simply get whatever ports you need with the biggest you can muster.
As far as USB or FW for the interface, USB is found on the ones with less taxing units for a reason: It "works" on them, 2 input, 4 input. But anything above that is generally FW. What is your expected recording situation? Always you creating the tracks? Recording your band? Tell us! : )
 
#10
spigmu said:
It also depends on your platform and how much your CPU is taxed with chores other than moving audio while it's moving. Very, very generally, Windows users suffer from some FW issues that Mac users don't because of drivers that have to be written that aren't part of the system (as in OSX), yet they have somewhat less USB audio problems because of the differences in how the OSs handle it. As well as all the aforementioned info about how data is handled differently by them. USB was developed as a peripheral bus, to move data and just get it there as fast as it (and the CPU) could, eventually. Firewire was specifically created to move audio and video with their attendant differences from other data. It's basically anecdotal, but as a Mac user FW has always been bulletproof for me, while USB2 just doesn't function "as advertised", and I certainly can't have hardly anything else going on with the CPU. I have PC friends who don't have the USB hatred I do yet can't make the simplest FW interface work up to spec.

So it depends on a lot. Plus, you can get ANY interface on ANYthing really. Skip LaCie. Lots of dead LaCie power supplies in their external drives. I would recommend checking out Other World Computing http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/firewire/

and simply get whatever ports you need with the biggest you can muster.
As far as USB or FW for the interface, USB is found on the ones with less taxing units for a reason: It "works" on them, 2 input, 4 input. But anything above that is generally FW. What is your expected recording situation? Always you creating the tracks? Recording your band? Tell us! : )
Click to expand...


Thanks for the response. EXTREMELY clear and informative.

I'll be demo-ing metal songs for other musicians for the songwriting process. My expectations production-wise are not too high here. As long as it sounds decent and other musicians can get the feel and structure of a song, I'll be happy. (For now.) I'll also be doing house/nu-jazz electronic stuff along with with guitar and bass. Hopefully, that'll sound a lot more poliished, since it'll be much closer to a 'final' product. (i.e. something where I can bring in a REAL keyboardist to record over my crappy keyboards and hand to a REAL engineer/producer to mix down and master.)

I'll be doing 90% of the tracking myself. Apart from that, it'll never be more than one person tracking at a time. For bass, I'll be recording direct or miking my cab, whichever sounds better. I'll be recording guitar 100% direct, since I don't have a guita amp yet.

My set-up:

- Toshiba Satellite 4 gig, Duo Core (It's what I had already)
- Sonar Studio 8 (Will upgrade to Producer 8 if everything works out)
- Edirol UA-25EX
- Edirol PCR 500 Midi keyboard controller
- Glyph GT 050Q 500 gig external hard drive
- Rode NT1A condenser mic (my first 'real' mic!!)

- No mic preamps yet. If anyone can recommend one low cost, that would be great. I was thinking ART Tube.

- No DI box for guitar yet. Waiting to see if it's needed. Regardless, can anyone recommend one low-cost?

- Sansamp BDDI for bass DI box, if needed.

TKS!!
 
#11
Jhan, sounds like a great plan. You have it well mapped out : ) Some of your questions need to go to people with your same set up. Motherboard, OS version, interface, and your recording app can all work well together or can grind to a halt because one one little driver issue. (And solve that and you're totally in business). The Sonar stuff is great, and it's all worth a shot : ) Since your inputting requirements are modest (not many at a time) you should be able to see what you can get, push it more, back off, etc. Sometimes simply increasing the buffer in the software can buy you more tracks, because it's filling more and more buffer instead of having to deliver the data so immediately. When you push it too much (tracks, plugins, etc) that's where the clicks and pops sneak in. The downside of a larger buffer is that there's a bigger delay between input and output, so it's fine for mixing, but not so good for overdubs. In that case there's often some kind of compensation in the app, or you can just listen to your input as you record. The reason I mention this is that I think the Toshiba SHOULD be fine for what you're doing (especially having 4 gig of RAM), but I'm not familiar enough with them to speak from experience. Go to the Sonar site's forums and see if anyone has anything to say about the Satellite/Edirol/Studio 8 combination.


Congrats on the Rode! I think it's a great choice. As far as the pre, I do have a bit of prejudice about cheap "tube" pres. Most of these (haven't double checked on the ART,but I'll wager it is) use a tube in what's known with "starved plate" design. It's really a marketing thing. Long story short, it's a way to stick a cheap tube in the signal path, but it's not the same as a "tube pre", and they generally aren't worth getting as one's only pre. They don't sound great and they sure don't sound tubey. If you get only one pre, and you want to spend in that range, I'd look at the $200 pres that aren't starved plate tubes, and don't be swayed by the price. You have a good mic, you don't need a $1000 pre but don't get a crummy one : )

Some of these will have a good sounding DI too. I'll get more specific after my coffee. : )
 

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