Double Bass Another Machine Extension Thread

[bassmastan]

Hi everyone,

I know these threads pop up every few years. I have been doing research on ergonomics of bass playing, and I was wondering is it ergonomic to finger an extension? It seems like it requires a lot of twisting of both the arm, shoulder and back. I only have 2 gates right now, so when I have to hold down a C# for a while I know I can get a little sore. What do you think?

It seems like (IMO) from a classical players point of view something that would keep your arm at a comfortable height would be the smarter option. Has anyone thought to modernize the design with carbon fiber or titanium to make them lighter and stronger? Maybe a removable key design so they don't get caught in the bag or broken off? Just a few ideas if there are any innovators out there (send me an extension if you make one haha!)

The second most ergonomic extension in my opinion would be the chromatic capo extension, an extension that allows you to spend less time reaching up, and ti gives you a point of reference for fingering passages.

So here is a poll for the bassists of 2015 which extension is most ergonomic in your opinion?(please follow up the poll with an explanation) Just interested in what everyone thinks!

 

[MikeCanada]

My vote is for the chromatic capo extension, even though I personally play in 5ths and think a 5 string is also another valid option.

I myself and a few others have talked at length here about the virtues of 5ths tuning. Ergonomics for reaching the low C was one of the big reasons I made the switch. While we are seeing more and more sections that have a mix of 5 strings, machines and capo extensions for reaching the low notes and fewer exclusively French or German bow orchestras, 5ths is not as readily accepted in many cases. Give it time.

5 strings are more or less popular in certain countries/regions and as such they can be very difficult to shop for if you do not live in one of those places. Some people love them and some people hate them, but they also solve the reaching behind your head problem without resorting to the machine buttons.

While I have not had a lot of experience with extensions, chromatic capos has made the most sense to me. Low drones or passages that repeatedly drop to one pitch below E are easier both to play and on the player. I would much rather close a Db capo than have to reach for it for an extended period of time. There can be some flailing involved especially if the wrong capo(s) are opened, closed, or forgotten, but it provides some cheap entertainment for the rest of the section.

 

[bassmastan]

Thanks for the insight Mike, to be honest, the only person I have really seen play in 5th is Joel Quarrington. I know around me it is totally unheard of (I mentioned it to a cellist friend and he thought I was joking).

As for 5 strings, I have enough trouble keeping up with 4!

I think the Capos make a lot of sense, I would just think that on a passage like the one in Shosti 5 first movement, that it is a lot of moving to get down and back up. Thinking about this more I realized there are so many other variables like how you sit/stand with the bass. I guess that goes into most of these things as well.

I guess it is one of those things...

Has the low 5th string become equally popular to the high 5th string, I see many bassists welcoming a high string to their instrument to make solo stuff much easier?

I am trying to find out this stuff because here at school like anywhere I am only exposed day to day with certain people with certain ideas, I guess I wanted to know what everyone else uses out there.

Here is another question for you: Are the Machines not used much today because they are impractical (clinks and clanks) or because they are aesthetically unpleasing (flute hanging off the extension)? Maybe a combination?

I would also love to see a map of who uses what (populations of 5ths tuning/5 string/low C types) I feel like that would be a really interesting study, that and see who the major influences are in the area.

I am honestly not looking to get anything done right now, nor am I thinking about ever, it's almost from a scientific perspective I guess...

 

[MikeCanada]

Joel is probably the most prominent classical orchestral player in 5ths. There are a few others such as Tomoya Aomori and Silvio Dalla Torre who are doing more solo/small ensemble work that you might come across in bass related discussions, and then there are others that are not as prominent. Andrew Downing has won a few Junos in the Canadian jazz scene, and Raphael McNabney is with Les Violins du Roy-a Quebec based chamber orchestra of critical acclaim-who are two of the people who come to mind who are not super famous by bassist standards but who are making a living doing so. They also happen to be former Joel Quarrington students, and the larger concentrations of 5ths players tend to be in cities like Toronto, Montreal, and Ottawa where Joel has taught for a while. Most of the 5ths players I have encountered have been serious amateurs, semi-professionals*, or low profile professionals which I would suspect is largely a result of it still being relatively rare. Where many schools and orchestras have grown much more accepting of the "wrong" bow, 5ths hasn't really broken that barrier yet.

The downside of the capo extension is that there is a lot of ground to cover between the low C/B and Ab. It is quite common that passages using it are scales that end at the bottom of the extension or start down there and move up. Shostakovich 5 is a great example of a piece that uses a lot of the range of the bass, and it's tricky. A machine means you aren't covering as much ground with your hand/arm, but switching from the E string to the buttons takes some getting used to and can slow you down a bit. How high the nut is in comparison to your head can make getting to the low notes tricky sitting or standing. There are a lot of things to think about.

I believe low 5th strings are much more prominent than high strings. They are quite common in orchestra sections. Orchestra players tend to have a lower profile than people like Renaud Garcia-Fons because the nature of their work, so we tend not to hear as much about the guy sitting 3rd desk in a well respected European orchestra. High flying soloists get more press. Similar to 5ths, low 5 strings tend to be fairly regional.

Machines are falling out of favour for a number of reasons. They have a reputation for excess noise when closing and opening which is particularly problematic when recording. This can be mostly mitigated by a good installation, but a lot of shops aren't nuts about hunting down the rattle when they come back in. I personally found the learning curve much less intuitive than capos. Tuning can be an issue and cannot be adjusted on the fly, where with capos if the D is a little off you can reach back and stop it with your finger in tune. A big part of it is also many teachers have adopted capos, and so that is what their students do when they make the jump.

Geographic location would be very interesting. It would be a challenge to do so in a meaningful way depending on how you defined the criteria. If you looked exclusively at professional orchestras and faculty at post-secondary education institutions, you could get very different results than if you looked at other genres, or included semi-professionals and amateurs as well.

*I am defining "semi-professional" as someone who supplements their bass playing income, and mentioned "low profile professionals" which I would define as people who make their living in multiple regional orchestras, teaching privately, or other situations that don't put them on the radar.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I had a gig a couple of years ago playing jazz bass with the Grant Park Symphony here in Chicago. It is a summertime pro ensemble that plays in the Millennium Park outdoor concerts. I was curious about the extension mix and what I recall were a couple of fingered, 2 or 3 capos, a mechanical, a 5 string bass and one bassist with no
extension. A real mix.

Andy Anderson, who also plays with the Lyric Opera for his main gig, showed me his 5 string Pollmann and it was just
a killer and so easy to play. He and his luthier put a lot of effort into getting the setup just right and it shows. He believes
the 5 string is the way to go for the low notes, calling it the "most elegant solution".

 

[bassmastan]

@MikeCanada I really enjoyed reading that! Extremely interesting! I can understand why the machines are falling out of fashion but I have to wonder, why hasn't (or maybe they have and I don't know) someone figured out a way to work around the problems (I think I suggested some solutions above). From what I remember in my research the Barnaby design was more successful than the Stenholm design, yet Stenholm's are the "USA standard"... interesting! For the low 5th string I understand what you mean by the low string vs high string, I wasn't really thinking of Garcia-Fons I was thinking more of the recent thread. Still learning a lot lol!

@Eric Hochberg Very interesting, that is a very interesting mix, did you hear any machines clanking? I am sure the section as a whole sounded great. That is interesting about Andy Anderson, I wonder if it has to do with setup with the 5's. Was it a tone thing (vibrating the low notes and good hand weight) with it or was it better looking?(if that came up haha!)

 

[bassmastan]

Hi Debs!
Happy Holidays and New Year!
I had a C extension on my big (44 inch string length) orchestra bass, years ago, but it was a machine with keys. I got the keyed kind because the idea of lifting my arm way over my head (I was a sitting player then) to press down on a tiny rail wide enough for one string, and do it quickly, and often.. semmed overburdensome. So a keyed machine seemed faster and though I was called "Captain Clunk" by my section mates, due to the noise of the mechanics, it was fast, and mostly I was relaxed. So, beware putting your arm high above your head and pressing (or squeezing between the finrger(s) and the thumb under the rail) for long lengths of time. It MAY (every person is different) lead to over-use syndrome or bursitis. Arpeggios and scales are certainly one way to go... find wonderful excerpts from Beethoven, Mahler, Strauss (of course), and even Bach that you can make into sequenced exercises. Also, I would practice the left hand and right's movements seperately, then put them together. It is amazing home "dependent" our hands are on each other. By separating the movements, they can become more independent and work together smoothly.
Good luck!
PN

Interesting quote form @PNeher :learning to use a low C extension | TalkBass.com

 

[bassmastan]

Thanks @Eric Hochberg ... Those Pollman's are show stoppers haha!

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Very interesting, that is a very interesting mix, did you hear any machines clanking? I am sure the section as a whole sounded great. That is interesting about Andy Anderson, I wonder if it has to do with setup with the 5's. Was it a tone thing (vibrating the low notes and good hand weight) with it or was it better looking?(if that came up haha!)

I didn't hear the machines, but I was busy playing my own part and I don't know if the section even used the low notes... Andy was referring to ease of use of a well setup good 5 string bass. But, his bass does look pertty, too!

 

[MikeCanada]

There are a few different machine designs out there. The Stenholm does tend to be most popular in North America, with the Barnaby/Fawcett being more popular in England. To the best of my knowledge there isn't another commercially available machine extension out there, although there likely are a few one-offs from engineering inclined bassists. Neither have really been updated. Given machines are decreasing in popularity (because of capo extensions) and it is a relatively small market, it would be a gamble to try to come up with something else.

KC Strings has taken that gamble. They came up with a sliding extension that can be seen on their website here, [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] Jeff Bradetich has one on his bass, and you can get a look at it in this video. I haven't found a video of it in use yet, but it appears to be similar to a fingered extension where you can set the lowest note as anything from low C to E. Because it slides I'm assuming that means tuning and/or quarter tones are options as well. I know nothing beyond what I have seen on their website and looking at a few photos.

It is also worth noting that proper installation is a huge part of any extension. Some of them are works of art, some of them are complete disasters. I have encountered a few machines that were as good as they get, and a few fingered/capo extensions that were impossible to play on and somehow managed to create buzzes.

Just as machines were considered the best solution for a generation or so of bassists, it seems that capos have caught on with the next generation. It is interesting to see how the instrument continues to evolve. Who knows what will be next.

 

[Bassguyrob]

Ok my turn. I am an owner of a wonderful Pollmann 5er and a Seth Kimmel with a capoed extension. While they both have advantages and disadvantages if I were to do it again, I would not change anything. My 5 is my classical axe and the Kimmel is my legit. Shostakovich 5 is a whole lot easier on a 5, but something like the Trout Quintet is easier on the extension. I have short arms so like you, fingering a C# is as far as I can reach. If you are going to have one bass, my vote is a capoed C extension.

 

[Federighi]

I use open C & finger needed notes. Great for Baroque & jazz.

 

[E.O.M.]

I have been using the Fawcett-style machine extension for many years now. It's quiet, easy-to-use, has the "natural" fingering to the keys (the keys ascend the way you think they should, not like the Stenholm), and easy to maintain. The only thing I dislike about it is not being able to lock the individual capos for passages that jump quickly between the extension notes and higher fingered notes like in Beethoven 3. Shosty 5 is a breeze on it.