Double Bass Anyone used a ToneRite before

[Sam Sherry]

I have one of these. I'm not sure it does anything. I think the amplitude of the signal is too weak to really cause significant vibrating in a bass. It's impossible for me to objectively test the thing, but I'm going to keep trying it.

This right here is what I dig about TalkBass and and respect about Arnold's participation on TalkBass.

Arnold is a Big Fish in the small pond of DB building and importing. It would be so easy for him to say, "The benefits are incalculable! My basses improve in ways which you simply must experience!" and try not to crack a smile. Instead, we get first-hand reporting and plain truth. Hat's off to you, sir (even if it's a year too late).

 

[Happy Steve]

Anyone read this before?

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I have tried something similar with a Mac driving those round clear plastic G4 speakers for about an hour, also with a powered speaker right in front of the instrument top. I used a targeted single looping tone, based on a 'dead note' found on my bass. I think it made a difference, but I will concede that a) it could be wishful thinking, and b) putting a new soundpost in probably made more difference.

Steve

 

[Big B.]

This thread makes me want to lock my bass in a room with a stereo and blast walrus mating calls at it all day. I am thinking it will give the sound more "attitude".

 

[robobass]

This thread makes me want to lock my bass in a room with a stereo and blast walrus mating calls at it all day. I am thinking it will give the sound more "attitude".

If I do this I'm going to rent time in a rock rehearsal studio which has some big ole Hi-Watt stacks and blast "Good Times Bad Times" from Led Zeppelin for a day. Dat's attitude!

 

[DukeLeJeune]

I was doing a search to see if double-bass players used such devices, and came across this thread.

A friend of mine recently developed a device that vibrates the body of the instrument directly. Basically, it converts the body of the instrument itself into a loudspeaker, and don't worry it won't affect the finish. It's less expensive than the ToneRite and probably does a better job of vibrating the wood itself.

The device is called primeVibe, and the inventor is James Romeyn, who I first met on the high-end home audio side of things, where he amazed me with how discerning his ears are (for example he could hear that my preamp inverts absolute phase, which I didn't know until I looked it up).

James has "before" and "after" sound clips as well as a video clip on his website (www.primevibe.com). Go to the product info page. If you click on the sound clips it takes you to a page that says in big letters "Leave a Reply", and above that in small letters is the link to start the sound clip. Click on the video link as well to see how it works.

As for an explanation of why an instrument sounds better after playing (which this device simulates), from the website:

"The wood tops (soundboards) of instruments contain lignin (also spelled lignen) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lignin. Lignin acts like a torsion box between the hard winter lines and soft summer lines of wood. The instrument’s vibrating strings cause lignin in the top to “relax” and “loosen” by defined parameters of motion, subjectively improving the instrument’s audible performance vs. its prior state of being tight and stressed. “Play-in,” “run-in,” and “seasoning” describe the relaxing/loosening process. Instruments new, recently serviced, and not played regularly benefit from play-in. We have noticed even guitars played regularly improve after a half hour or so of use."

Just to be clear, I have no affiliation... not even "satisfied customer", as I'm not a musician.

 

[longfinger]

Hmm the primevibe seems like it could be effective, but it also seems very impractical to use in the back ground, while doing something else.

I giving this 60Hz de-dampening process a try, but using the below product instead of Tonerite.

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I put it on the bridge while the bass is standing up in a stand. I taped up the air-exhaust as this made the unit much quieter. I don't want it to pump air, just vibrate. Fish tank people, could you chime in? I mainly want to know that the unit won't catch fire if the air flow is blocked.

It definitely vibrates the bass, I can hear the bass hum (distinct from the motor hum), and feel some subtle vibrations when I touch the bass. With the tape over the air exhaust, it is quiet enough for me to practice other music things while it works in the back ground.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

I know that Horst Grunert used something that he hooked the basses up to in a soundproof room. You know, turning the bass into a large speaker. I think it ran up and down the frequency spectrum and supposedly made a huge difference.

 

[klyph]

I taped up the air-exhaust as this made the unit much quieter. I don't want it to pump air, just vibrate. Fish tank people, could you chime in? I mainly want to know that the unit won't catch fire if the air flow is blocked.

You want it to vibrate, but to be "quiet"?

My experience with diaphragmmatic (small) aquarium air pumps is that when the airflow is completely blocked with the pump running for a long time the diaphragm, usually made of very thin rubber, will develop a leak (they're not designed for back pressure). This will make the audible volume comparable to the unblocked line, AND the pump won't push air. Repairing the diaphragm is possible, but the time involved will make it cheaper to buy a new pump (unless you're unemployed). They are made to run continously (sp?), so there should be no fire hazard. That diaphragm will break long before the dead-simple electrics do.

Thinking about this, you could just physically connect the vibrating arm (connected to the center of the diaphragm) to whatever you want to vibrate (with glue, solder,etc.) No rotary motion here- I think anyone involved with speaker design would get a kick out of seeing the guts of one of these- it's a little "voice coil" engine!

 

[klyph]

I taped up the air-exhaust as this made the unit much quieter. I don't want it to pump air, just vibrate. Fish tank people, could you chime in? I mainly want to know that the unit won't catch fire if the air flow is blocked.

You want it to vibrate, but to be "quiet"?

My experience with diaphragmmatic (small) aquarium air pumps is that when the airflow is completely blocked with the pump running for a long time the diaphragm, usually made of very thin rubber, will develop a leak (they're not designed for back pressure). This will make the audible volume comparable to the unblocked line, AND the pump won't push air. Repairing the diaphragm is possible, but the time involved will make it cheaper to buy a new pump (unless you're unemployed). They are made to run continously (sp?), so there should be no fire hazard. That diaphragm will break long before the dead-simple electrics do.

Thinking about this, you could just physically connect the vibrating arm (connected to the center of the diaphragm) to whatever you want to vibrate (with glue, solder,etc.) No rotary motion here- I think anyone involved with speaker design would get a kick out of seeing the guts of one of these- it's a little "voice coil" engine!

 

[Jack Clark]

Just subscribing.

 

[longfinger]

You want it to vibrate, but to be "quiet"?

My experience with diaphragmmatic (small) aquarium air pumps is that when the airflow is completely blocked with the pump running for a long time the diaphragm, usually made of very thin rubber, will develop a leak (they're not designed for back pressure). This will make the audible volume comparable to the unblocked line, AND the pump won't push air. Repairing the diaphragm is possible, but the time involved will make it cheaper to buy a new pump (unless you're unemployed). They are made to run continously (sp?), so there should be no fire hazard. That diaphragm will break long before the dead-simple electrics do.

Thinking about this, you could just physically connect the vibrating arm (connected to the center of the diaphragm) to whatever you want to vibrate (with glue, solder,etc.) No rotary motion here- I think anyone involved with speaker design would get a kick out of seeing the guts of one of these- it's a little "voice coil" engine!

Hey thanks for the tips. I think the unit is quieter with the air exhaust taped up, in the same way that a noisy room is quieter to people outside the room when the door is closed. The open hole seems to let the internal noise of the unit out into the room. I'm not concerned with the air pump aspect of the unit, just the moving vibrating aspect, so if the diaphragm develops leaks it's no big deal.


With my fingers, I can feel the bass vibrate and track how it is making the top, back , sides, fingerboard and neck vibrate. The 60hz hum moves the bass side more than the treble side, both on the top and back. The treble side bottom bout is moving the least comparatively. My fingers suggest that the vibrations are more widespread than before.

I don't know how I'll be able to measure the outcome of this experiment.

[ new info] It seems the air pump was positioned on the bridge in a way that caused more vibrations to travel down the bass side foot, than the treble side foot. I'm adjusting the pump placement to attempt to correct this.

 

[longfinger]

I took of the 60Hz vibrator today. The bass was humming along for about 80 hours.

I'm not sure if there was a change. The bass is fun to play, pizz and arco, and sounds great to me, but it did before too. The low C# on the A string seems to play better now and the bass seems more full with more fundamental, perhaps easier to get it to sound, but I could be imagining all that. It's been a few days since I played it last, and maybe I had a good morning. I did some recordings of 'before' and 'after' in 24bit WAV on the H2. They sound pretty much the same, maybe a little different, but if that is because of the vibration of something else I don't know. I NORMALIZED the recordings on the H2 before importing, which would remove any volume increase. Maybe that was not the best thing to do for testing, but it's what I would have normally done to recordings in WAV, so it is 'real life use'.


Hmm.

Since the fish tank air pump did physically vibrate the bass, as noticed by my touch, it was doing it's thing, the bass was humming. Maybe the $350 Tonerite for bass would vibrate the instrument more conveniently, even more effectively, but the $20 fish tank air pump did do the vibrating.

The results of 80 hours of vibrating are hard to notice or describe.

 

[Paul Barsic]

This is a nice little summary, with some good references at the end:
http://liutaiomottola.com/myth/played.htm
There is some evidence that this sort of device may work. The author of that article concludes, "there may well be a causal relationship between how much an instrument is played and how good it sounds. But to date (and to my knowledge) there does not exist a study with enough methodological rigor to support this conclusion."

It is possible to quantify qualitative judgments, but it requires a double blind study with a very large sample. Take a large group of violinists (the smaller size of the instrument leads to easier handling), and a number of similar violins. Subject half of the violins to the Tonerite (or some similar produce) and leave the other half as they are. Select a few pieces from the standard repertoire, and have the violinists play them on two violins in front of a jury. Some of the violinists have received one violin with the Tonerite treatment and one without, some receive two without, and some receive two with. The violinist does not know which violin is played, and the jury does not know. The jury judges the better sounding violin, the violinist judges the better playing violin. Collect the surveys and perform a statistical analysis. Is there a strong correlation, or were the subjects responses no better than random guesses?

 

[Gatortail1]

Ive got both the Tonerite and the PrimeVibe.

PrimeVibe Pros

-I can put my favorite bassists actual performance directly into my instrument. In theory, this "trains" my bass to respond to those physical tones that are being produced by Ray Brown for instance.

Cons

- Due to the mass of an upright bass top, the amount of energy (volume) that must be pushed into it, is a lot. I mean a lot. After 3 days of pumping music into the bass, I got very tired of it. It was LOUD. The bass was basically a speaker box at that point. I wanted to turn it off.

- You can't use the Primevibe unless the instrument is on it's back. It won't work if you have you bass in a stand, unless you tape it to the bass (watch your finish). So because the bass is on it's back, the back does not vibrate so your whole instrument is not getting the vibe.

In my opinion, using the PrimeVibe is like ordering a PB and J sandwich and only being served the side with PB.



ToneRite Pros-

-It's quiet. I don't want to turn it off.
-I've used it for almost 48 hours now and my volume has jumped two fold.
-The bass response on my bass is way more focused than it was and it will probably only get better.
-It has already enhance everything that my bass has.

Cons

- It's 400 bucks shipped.

In my opinion, the ToneRite wins hands down. No questions. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. I'm glad I bought it.



Here is a video from about 2 weeks ago.


Please forgive the bowing.

 

[Anon2962]

Why would anyone pay for one, assuming you own a BOW?

Here's a trick my teacher, the legendary Michael Wolf taught me:

Do this: using all the bow, play a LIGHT, FAST stroke, using a full bow (100 BPM seeems about right) right down by the bridge on your favourite open string. You should get a ponticello sound. Don't be afraid. Don't move that bow! Keep at it! Light and fast stroke.

You should start to hear the overtones begin to start falling after about 20/30 seconds or so from crazy high notes, eventually coming down to an octave above the open string. If not, move your bow away from the bridge a millimetre, and begin again.

Now that you've got the overtones at the octave: Don't come away form the bridge, but use a slightly slower (still just as LIGHT) bow now, and .....BOOM: the string should drop to the fundamental, and you bass should start singing that open string like never before. Try speeding up the bow again. Don't be put off by any rattling or buzzing that appears- this is a very, very high volume!

Enjoy! Play for a 2/3 mins at this insanely loud volume.

Now as an experiment, play something simple, DOH-RE-MI, with the bow on the other strings, coming back to the string you worked on last. You should notice the quality of the sound is much improved on the string you just worked.

Repeat for all the other strings, (and notes in other registers). Do it every day as a warm-up, and your bass will sound "like a boat coming into harbour.....a big boat".

It's also really fun to play a little vibrato during stopped notes - because the overtones are all working well, a little vibrato sounds great!

 

[robobass]

Why would anyone pay for one, assuming you own a BOW?

Here's a trick my teacher, the legendary Michael Wolf taught me:

Do this: using all the bow, play a LIGHT, FAST stroke, using a full bow (100 BPM seeems about right) right down by the bridge on your favourite open string. You should get a ponticello sound. Don't be afraid. Don't move that bow! Keep at it! Light and fast stroke....

Homer Mensch students reading this will giggle at the mention of the "slow bow exercise". It was quite different from what you describe, but probably has a similar result.

It was a meandering thing in C# minor with groups of nine sixteenth note triplets to a bow, not much crossing, and to be played slowly. To have enough bow you had to play it very ponticello. It was as much fun as a root canal, but if you did even half a page as a warm up it really loosened up your bass and got it singing. Temporary, though, as I imagine are the effects of mechanical devices as well.

 

[LouisF]

I heard the Tonerite's effects on some (not so great) basses at a friend's shop in Pasadena - the basses certainly did sound warmer and louder than I remember them. So I think there is some value to these devices for luthier's and builders.

I decided to try the prime-vibe as an experiment ($100) and was quite pleased and surprised by the results. Yes, the bass has to stay on its back, but (at least for me) the music didn't need to be terribly loud. I "treated" the basses (2 new ones, both hand made) over night - random classical music over the radio and then regular doses of Edgar Meyer's Bach suites!!

I did a one day experiment, to see what the initial impact was. Each bass did sound a little warmer and louder, but that faded by the next day.

But I continued the experiment for about ten days/two weeks, alternating basses, until we got past the 100 hour mark on each...

And I have to say the result is significant: both basses are significantly louder in volume, warmer, and seem to have more complexity in tone. I used one in a chamber orchestra concert and everyone commented on the full "bloom" of the bass's sound and its low end.

Again, it seems to me that this would be about where the basses would sound like with a couple of years constant playing and breaking in. I think for someone dealing or working with new instruments, it certainly worth looking into!

Louis

 

[longfinger]

I heard the Tonerite's effects on some (not so great) basses at a friend's shop in Pasadena - the basses certainly did sound warmer and louder than I remember them. So I think there is some value to these devices for luthier's and builders.

I decided to try the prime-vibe as an experiment ($100) and was quite pleased and surprised by the results. Yes, the bass has to stay on its back, but (at least for me) the music didn't need to be terribly loud. I "treated" the basses (2 new ones, both hand made) over night - random classical music over the radio and then regular doses of Edgar Meyer's Bach suites!!

I did a one day experiment, to see what the initial impact was. Each bass did sound a little warmer and louder, but that faded by the next day.

But I continued the experiment for about ten days/two weeks, alternating basses, until we got past the 100 hour mark on each...

And I have to say the result is significant: both basses are significantly louder in volume, warmer, and seem to have more complexity in tone. I used one in a chamber orchestra concert and everyone commented on the full "bloom" of the bass's sound and its low end.

Again, it seems to me that this would be about where the basses would sound like with a couple of years constant playing and breaking in. I think for someone dealing or working with new instruments, it certainly worth looking into!

Louis

Nice to read this. Thanks. Have you tried placing the prime-vibe speakers on the bridge when the bass is in a stand? That should work too.

 

[longfinger]

Why would anyone pay for one, assuming you own a BOW?

Here's a trick my teacher, the legendary Michael Wolf taught me:

Do this: using all the bow, play a LIGHT, FAST stroke, using a full bow (100 BPM seeems about right) right down by the bridge on your favourite open string. You should get a ponticello sound. Don't be afraid. Don't move that bow! Keep at it! Light and fast stroke.

You should start to hear the overtones begin to start falling after about 20/30 seconds or so from crazy high notes, eventually coming down to an octave above the open string. If not, move your bow away from the bridge a millimetre, and begin again.

Now that you've got the overtones at the octave: Don't come away form the bridge, but use a slightly slower (still just as LIGHT) bow now, and .....BOOM: the string should drop to the fundamental, and you bass should start singing that open string like never before. Try speeding up the bow again. Don't be put off by any rattling or buzzing that appears- this is a very, very high volume!

Enjoy! Play for a 2/3 mins at this insanely loud volume.

Now as an experiment, play something simple, DOH-RE-MI, with the bow on the other strings, coming back to the string you worked on last. You should notice the quality of the sound is much improved on the string you just worked.

Repeat for all the other strings, (and notes in other registers). Do it every day as a warm-up, and your bass will sound "like a boat coming into harbour.....a big boat".

It's also really fun to play a little vibrato during stopped notes - because the overtones are all working well, a little vibrato sounds great!

While the above does get the bass moving, I think the main target for these mechanical do-hickies is that they are useful for people with many instruments and little time to play them. (Less useful for a full time player with only 1 instrument, more useful for a person with many instruments of different kinds , ie. upright bass, electric bass, guitar, mandolin.) When such a person has 20 minutes free to finally play one particular instrument, I doubt that he or she would want to spend it doing the above exercise and then put the bass away for next time, as opposed to just playing some music.

I did do your exercise and did notice some improvements, however I wonder if it was all in my head... literally. Sure people says instruments change with time and playing, yeah but people change way more. My head and ears were vibrating while playing and my head felt different even many minutes after I stopped playing. I wonder if the constant droning affected the fluids in my ear and nasal cavities more so than the bass itself. Singers often get that "skull buzz".

 

[engedi1]

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