Apogee Jam with a Mac... Why?

[silky smoove]

Adjusting with the track plugins or master volume only effects the track volume after recording. They do not effect the actual recording level. I've said this 3 or 4 times now.

And at least as many times we've told you that that's how interfaces work.
Track plugins: ITB
Input gain: OTB

 

[matante]

@callofcthulhu nailed it with his responses. A couple things I would add:


Does the GarageBand manual really state that, or are you going by what you've heard online? I don't mean that in a snarky way. The whole "record as hot as possible without clipping" thing has been around forever, and it makes no sense in the modern world of digital recording. Shoot for -18 to -20dbfs on the peaks (some folks go up to -12 to -14dbfs, which is probably fine as well provided you don't have a super dynamic input signal).


A quick Google search provided me with over a full page of articles explaining how to increase waveform gain, so yes, GB does let you do it. Just like anything else software related, you have to take the time to learn how to do everything you want. Google is your friend in this regard. There's an insane amount of information out there for people in your position. Take advantage of it.


Yes, but that's not the point you were making. You were talking about input signal levels which is a function of things happening in the analog domain, not the digital one. Just because the signal is passing the converter doesn't mean that adjustment made in the box will have an affect on things happening outside the box.


You can, which is what I stated above and in my previous post. Those adjustments have nothing to do with the input signal and are used to resolve different issues, not the ones you're having. Moreover, once a signal is clipped, it's clipped. Lowering the volume/gain in the box will just make the clipped signal quieter. When you exceed 0dbfs, all of the 1s and 0s become 1s and you get harsh, nasty, unpleasant digital distortion. There's no reason to track that hot in the digital domain. You can pleasantly clip a preamp in the analog domain and then use something to attenuate it prior to crossing the converter, but that's a very different thing.


That works fine provided you're not clipping. That said, if you're hitting -18 to -20dbfs, why bother? You're already at the optimal level for mixing.


Why can't you do that with the Jam? There's an gain control on the side of the unit. Reduce the level and track the part again. You shouldn't be tracking so hot that you're exceeding 0dbfs (i.e. clipping) anyway, but I understand that accidents do happen.


Don't get caught up in what the waveforms look like. The notion of halfway being "about right" is silly. The noise floor in the digital world is so low that it's a complete non-issue. Trust me; Record at -18 to -20dbfs and you'll have a much better time.


Volume, yes. Tone, no. It's digital. Changing volume only changes volume, it does not have ANY affect on tone outside of things like Fletcher-Munsen curves.

That was a direct quote from the GarageBand Getting Started pdf which is the only manual written by Apple.

Can you post a link to your Google search? I don't see anything that says I can increase recording level gain in GB when using an Apogee Jam. Obviously I can adjust levels after the fact. We've covered that.

The point I was making was that I only care about input level to the degree that it effects the recording level. Input level and recording level shouldn't have to be the same thing.

Again I never said anything about clipping any signals anywhere in the chain. I don't know where you get the impression that I'm doing this or want to do this. The whole point of this thread is that I'm setting levels by the book, not clipping anything, and the level being read by GB is too low.

I just recorded with a dedicated 1/4" to 1/8" cable and it sounds even better than how I was doing it before--with an adapter. Again, I'm not saying the Apogee sucks or doesn't work, I just don't see (or hear) any advantage to it. If anything, the line-in method sounds more like my bass.

 

[matante]

Shoot for -18 to -20dbfs on the peaks (some folks go up to -12 to -14dbfs, which is probably fine as well provided you don't have a super dynamic input signal).

Let me put it this way. You said shoot for -18 to -20dbfs on the peaks. Let's say you connect your bass to your interface, you set the proper level (as high as you can without clipping) then in your DAW you read that your signal is only -30dbfs on the peaks. What do you do then?

 

[silky smoove]

I'm on my phone, so no fancy reply/quotes happening. I'll try to respond in order of your questions.

That's a bummer that it's in the GB manual that way. It's just wrong.

Search for "garage band waveform gain" or others of the like.

Input level and recording level are the same thing. RecordING and recordED are not the same thing.

Clipping was just reinforcing what Cthulhu was commenting on. If you're not clipping, great. That said, setting your input gain as hot as possible without clipping is a sure fire way to do just that.

Regarding it being too low: I keep asking how low is the signal without an answer. Grab a free AU format meter plugin, there are tons, insert it on a track and tell us what the level is.

If the built-in soundcard is working better for you, then by all means use it. Without having ever met you or knowing anything about your system, and assuming the Jam was working correctly, I would bet 10 times out of 10 that the Jam is capable of much higher quality results.

Your last question makes no sense. If you set your input to deliver peaks of -18 to -20dbfs and the result in your DAW is -30dbfs, that tells me that either you are setting your input gain to deliver -30dbfs rather than -18 to -20, or something is malfunctioning in your system, the latter being unlikely.

 

[matante]

I'm on my phone, so no fancy reply/quotes happening. I'll try to respond in order of your questions.

That's a bummer that it's in the GB manual that way. It's just wrong.

Search for "garage band waveform gain" or others of the like.

Input level and recording level are the same thing. RecordING and recordED are not the same thing.

Clipping was just reinforcing what Cthulhu was commenting on. If you're not clipping, great. That said, setting your input gain as hot as possible without clipping is a sure fire way to do just that.

Regarding it being too low: I keep asking how low is the signal without an answer. Grab a free AU format meter plugin, there are tons, insert it on a track and tell us what the level is.

If the built-in soundcard is working better for you, then by all means use it. Without having ever met you or knowing anything about your system, and assuming the Jam was working correctly, I would bet 10 times out of 10 that the Jam is capable of much higher quality results.

Your last question makes no sense. If you set your input to deliver peaks of -18 to -20dbfs and the result in your DAW is -30dbfs, that tells me that either you are setting your input gain to deliver -30dbfs rather than -18 to -20, or something is malfunctioning in your system, the latter being unlikely.

All of those "wave form gain" things have to do with adjusting the levels after recording. I'm not looking for help with that.

You keep asking me how low the signal is and I keep telling you that GB doesn't give me a specific number. I told you the signal fills about 10% of the bar whereas the audio-in method fills about half of it. Videos I see on youtube also fill about half the bar.

I didn't say anything about setting input to deliver -18 peaks. I said setting your interface by the book (so it's not clipping), and then discovering that you're only getting -30 dbfs. If what you're shooting for is -18dbfs, then what?

 

[silky smoove]

That gets back to something you said earlier about not being able to do anything with the signal once it was in GB.

I just told you to grab a free AU format metering plugin. There are tons of them. That will give you a specific number. Why guess when there are no-cost options available?

In your last reply you did say specifically setting to -18 to -20, but only getting -30, which makes zero sense.

 

[matante]

That gets back to something you said earlier about not being able to do anything with the signal once it was in GB.

I just told you to grab a free AU format metering plugin. There are tons of them. That will give you a specific number. Why guess when there are no-cost options available?

In your last reply you did say specifically setting to -18 to -20, but only getting -30, which makes zero sense.

I didn't say setting to -18, I said "aiming for". You said -18 is what you aim for, didn't you? So if you buy an interface at the store, set levels according to the manufacturers instructions, and find that you're not getting the -18 you aim for, you're getting a level lower than that, then what?

OK I downloaded the HOFA 4U meter and with the line-in method I'm reading peaks of -6. With the Apogee the peaks are around -12. But as I A/B the two tracks, setting aside the levels, there is only a slight difference between them in tone and neither is objectively better. I can only say that the audio-in sounds more accurate. The Apogee is brighter than what my bass really sounds like. I use flats and the Jam makes it sound like I have rounds on it. Adding compression they still sound similar with the line-in not being noisy anymore like it was with the adapter. That's as far as I'm going to take this experiment. I'm happy with the line-in method.

Thanks for the replies. I didn't mean for this to become a debate.

 

[silky smoove]

So if you buy an interface at the store, set levels according to the manufacturers instructions, and find that you're not getting the -18 you aim for, you're getting a level lower than that, then what?

Like I said previously, that means you're either doing something wrong, or the interface is malfunctioning.

OK I downloaded the HOFA 4U meter and with the line-in method I'm reading peaks of -6. With the Apogee the peaks are around -12.

So both methods are slightly hotter than ideal, but acceptable is they're still peaking -6 to -12dbfs below 0.

ut as I A/B the two tracks, setting aside the levels, there is only a slight difference between them in tone and neither is objectively better. I can only say that the audio-in sounds more accurate. The Apogee is brighter than what my bass really sounds like. I use flats and the Jam makes it sound like I have rounds on it.

My suspicion is that the Apogee is in fact the more accurate of the two which is why you're seeing so much more high end content. The onboard soundcard's preamp is likely rolling all of that information off in a way not dissimilar to what happens when playing through a speaker cabinet. This is generally what people are describing when they say something is "colored" (ie some information is reduced while other information is hyped) and the opposite of what they're describing when they say "transparent" (what goes in is what comes out). Playing direct through a cleaner, more accurate, more transparent, etc. preamp tends to be really revealing on the top end. A lot of guys that come to my studio can't stand monitoring themselves that way, so I'll either only send the mic'd amp signal to their monitor mix, or I'll create a discrete monitor path for them to tweak themselves without affecting what's going into my system. For your purposes, having that additional content may or may not be helpful depending on the mix.