Assistance in working out improvisation progressions and walking bass lines

[Lamphun_Lamyai]

Week 15 of my Bass Journey

I've had this progression tripping in my head for the last couple of days, so today I'm going to make a walking bass line out of it.
I sang it and played it and this is the progression:

C A D G

First off, I'm trying to understand what key that would be and what the numeral progression would be. I don't have enough background in theory, but this is my attempt at working on it as a practical application. I've played with it and it seems it could be a I VI II IV progression in the key of C. But honestly - I'm guessing.

So, breaking that down into 1, 3, 5 triads I get:

Here is the progression I'm going to play with tomorrow as a walking bass line - Why? It sounds nice:

I don't know what those sharps leading into the root note would be called. A nudge in understanding would help?

I've been at this for over an hour today just exploring the possibilities on paper, by sound, and on guitar. I'll start practicing this all over the fretboard tomorrow. Right now my brain is starting to sizzle.

This exercise helps me to do a few things:
Work on my theory
Learn my fretboard
Find interval patterns around root notes
Practice walking bass

 

[Yonni]

I just ordered a bass theory book to help with this sort of thing. I’ve been playing 8 years but improvising/jamming/composing has never been my focus, until now. I’m about to be laid up for a week or two after minor surgery next week. That should give me time to get my head around it. Hope I’ll be able to share some insight with you soon.

Subbed.

 

[SteveCS]

I've played with it and it seems it could be a I VI II IV progression in the key of C. But honestly - I'm guessing.

Firstly, major keys only contain 3 major chords, on degrees I, IV and V, so there is no single major key in which all of those major chords (C, A, D and G) are diatonic (of the key). If you were wanting to stay in the key of C, the second (ii) chord would need to be minor, i.e. Dm (D, F, A and not D, F#, A), as would the 6th (vi) chord (Am = A, C ,E, not A. C#, E).

The minor key does (oddly) contain 5 major chords on the III, IV, V, VI and VII degrees. The chords in your sequence can fit this pattern in the key of E Minor:

G=III (Root is minor 3rd from any of the minor scales: G, B, D);
A = IV (3rd is major 6th from the melodic minor scale: A, C#, E);
C=VI (Root is minor 6th from the natural and harmonic minor scales: C, E, G);
D = VII (Root is natural 7th from the natural minor scale: D, F#, A).

If you have a keyboard, try playing them all over a droning low E and you will hear it

I don't know what those sharps leading into the root note would be called. A nudge in understanding would help?

The first thing that might help is renaming the notes to enharmonic equivalents. If you rename A# to Bb you can instantly see the first C chord becoming C7 (C, E, G, Bb). C7 is V of the keys of F or F minor, it can also be IV in the key of G minor or VII in the key of A minor. None of which contain all of the other chords - see above.

If you rename the other '?' notes they become Eb, Ab and Db respectively. Now with these new names you can easily see that they are the diminished 5th (or 'Flat 5', if you prefer) of the chord. In that capacity, and assuming the P5 and b5 don't sound together (at the same time), they might just be seen as chromatic passing notes that lead down to the root of the next chord. If those notes only appear momentarily in the bass and not in the upper voices you could leave it there.

Put them all together in the upper voices and with enough space between them you get some nice exotic-sounding textures that have interesting movement. There are many ways to name the chords - the most 'correct' name will depend on context so is up to you. And remember, despite what the jazz folks might tell you, not all chords need a fully-qualified name!!

 

[dave_p]

The last note of each grouping you have looks to be just a half step approach from above to your next chord. It’s a valid strategy. Try same progression with the approach to next chord with a half step from below. Do you still like the sound? Both are one of many valid approaches for moving to the next chord and this is used in walking bass all of the time.

Now, take that approach note and move it to the first note in each grouping. So play the triads but approach each root from a half step above.

 

[DirtDog]

If you made the a A in that progression an A minor, the key would be G major. Once you know that, there’s several ways to improvise - scales, modes, building arpeggios, etc using G major (and/or its relative minor, E minor). Chord theory is your friend.

That’s just for note selection; phrasing, dynamics, melody, harmony are all important things to consider in soloing or improvisation. I know these things but I’m still terrible at it!!!!

 

[Lamphun_Lamyai]

Firstly, major keys only contain 3 major chords, on degrees I, IV and V, so there is no single major key in which all of those major chords (C, A, D and G) are diatonic (of the key). If you were wanting to stay in the key of C, the second (ii) chord would need to be minor, i.e. Dm (D, F, A and not D, F#, A), as would the 6th (vi) chord (Am = A, C ,E, not A. C#, E).

The minor key does (oddly) contain 5 major chords on the III, IV, V, VI and VII degrees. The chords in your sequence can fit this pattern in the key of E Minor:

G=III (Root is minor 3rd from any of the minor scales: G, B, D);
A = IV (3rd is major 6th from the melodic minor scale: A, C#, E);
C=VI (Root is minor 6th from the natural and harmonic minor scales: C, E, G);
D = VII (Root is natural 7th from the natural minor scale: D, F#, A).

If you have a keyboard, try playing them all over a droning low E and you will hear it


The first thing that might help is renaming the notes to enharmonic equivalents. If you rename A# to Bb you can instantly see the first C chord becoming C7 (C, E, G, Bb). C7 is V of the keys of F or F minor, it can also be IV in the key of G minor or VII in the key of A minor. None of which contain all of the other chords - see above.

If you rename the other '?' notes they become Eb, Ab and Db respectively. Now with these new names you can easily see that they are the diminished 5th (or 'Flat 5', if you prefer) of the chord. In that capacity, and assuming the P5 and b5 don't sound together (at the same time), they might just be seen as chromatic passing notes that lead down to the root of the next chord. If those notes only appear momentarily in the bass and not in the upper voices you could leave it there.

Put them all together in the upper voices and with enough space between them you get some nice exotic-sounding textures that have interesting movement. There are many ways to name the chords - the most 'correct' name will depend on context so is up to you. And remember, despite what the jazz folks might tell you, not all chords need a fully-qualified name!!

If you made the a A in that progression an A minor, the key would be G major. Once you know that, there’s several ways to improvise - scales, modes, building arpeggios, etc using G major (and/or its relative minor, E minor). Chord theory is your friend.

That’s just for note selection; phrasing, dynamics, melody, harmony are all important things to consider in soloing or improvisation. I know these things but I’m still terrible at it!!!!

From my current working knowledge of theory these comments are a tad over my head, but not beyond my reach if I give it some thought and fill in what I don't currently know. I'll dig into both these comment tomorrow, fill in the holes in my understanding, and work with that new material. Thanks much!

 

[turf3]

Well, that's a classic 1-6-2-5 turnaround. Thousands of tunes use that progression somewhere; for thousands more, that IS the progression. "Lonesome for You", "Salty Dog Blues", "Fast Express", that's three I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[SteveCS]

Well, that's a classic 1-6-2-5 turnaround. Thousands of tunes use that progression somewhere; for thousands more, that IS the progression. "Lonesome for You", "Salty Dog Blues", "Fast Express", that's three I can think of off the top of my head.

Not quite, because his 2 (D) and 6 (A) are major. In the 'classic' turnaround, 2 and 6 are minor.

 

[turf3]

In the tunes I'm referencing, along with many others, they're major.

Yes, of course, there are also hundreds of tunes where the 6 and 2 are minor. Or the 6 is minor and the 2 isn't. Or the other way round. Sometimes they're 7 chords and sometimes they aren't. If we start to tot up all the permutations we're rapidly going to approach the 9 billion names of God and you wouldn't want that to happen, would you?

 

[eeyorebass]

In the tunes I'm referencing, along with many others, they're major.

Yes, of course, there are also hundreds of tunes where the 6 and 2 are minor. Or the 6 is minor and the 2 isn't. Or the other way round. Sometimes they're 7 chords and sometimes they aren't. If we start to tot up all the permutations we're rapidly going to approach the 9 billion names of God and you wouldn't want that to happen, would you?

This.

When I see C-A-D-G, my mind goes immediately to I-vi-ii-V, assuming diatonic harmony in the Key of C. However, it's perfectly valid for them all to be major, and you'd analyze as I - V/ii - V/V - V (One - Five of Two - Five of Five - Five).

 

[TrevorOfDoom]

A quick note, if i may.
All the advise and knowledge shared here is good, and i wish i was working on this stuff when i was only in my 15th week of playing.

A thing that can get lost as we learn theory and structure and such is that music theory isn’t a collection of rules or guidelines for music. It’s a language used to communicate musical concepts.
Just as we use portmanteaus and slang in our everyday that defies or subverts the “rules” of whatever language you speak, so too can we subvert the “rules” of music theory.
The saying, “if it sounds right, it is right” is accurate, but i’d charge everyone to know as much of the language as possible, because it’s easier to bend it in fun and interesting ways when you know how it works.
I love a II V progression, or a iv I, or a Picardy III.
Learn the language, then just remember that it’s a shorthand to explain concepts and ideas to your fellow musicians.

And keep up the good work! You’ll be stealing everybody’s gigs in no time!

Week 15 of my Bass Journey

I've had this progression tripping in my head for the last couple of days, so today I'm going to make a walking bass line out of it.
I sang it and played it and this is the progression:

C A D G

First off, I'm trying to understand what key that would be and what the numeral progression would be. I don't have enough background in theory, but this is my attempt at working on it as a practical application. I've played with it and it seems it could be a I VI II IV progression in the key of C. But honestly - I'm guessing.

So, breaking that down into 1, 3, 5 triads I get:
View attachment 7126284

Here is the progression I'm going to play with tomorrow as a walking bass line - Why? It sounds nice:
View attachment 7126286

I don't know what those sharps leading into the root note would be called. A nudge in understanding would help?

I've been at this for over an hour today just exploring the possibilities on paper, by sound, and on guitar. I'll start practicing this all over the fretboard tomorrow. Right now my brain is starting to sizzle.

This exercise helps me to do a few things:
Work on my theory
Learn my fretboard
Find interval patterns around root notes
Practice walking bass

 

[Lamphun_Lamyai]

Well, that's a classic 1-6-2-5 turnaround. Thousands of tunes use that progression somewhere; for thousands more, that IS the progression. "Lonesome for You", "Salty Dog Blues", "Fast Express", that's three I can think of off the top of my head.

Not quite, because his 2 (D) and 6 (A) are major. In the 'classic' turnaround, 2 and 6 are minor.

Yep - The D and A are majors.

 

[Lamphun_Lamyai]

Learn the language, then just remember that it’s a shorthand to explain concepts and ideas to your fellow musicians.

100% - That is my goal in the long run. And I'm diligently working on that. I have one regret. I wish I had started this 60 years ago. But hey, I'm making up for lost time. I just wish I had more energy. Old age sucks. Bass rocks though!

 

[SteveCS]

...
Old age sucks. Bass rocks though!
...

At least as we age our hearing deteriorates from the top down!!

 

[azureblue]

Week 15 of my Bass Journey

I've had this progression tripping in my head for the last couple of days, so today I'm going to make a walking bass line out of it.
I sang it and played it and this is the progression:

C A D G

First off, I'm trying to understand what key that would be and what the numeral progression would be. I don't have enough background in theory, but this is my attempt at working on it as a practical application. I've played with it and it seems it could be a I VI II IV progression in the key of C. But honestly - I'm guessing.

So, breaking that down into 1, 3, 5 triads I get:
View attachment 7126284

Here is the progression I'm going to play with tomorrow as a walking bass line - Why? It sounds nice:
View attachment 7126286

I don't know what those sharps leading into the root note would be called. A nudge in understanding would help?

I've been at this for over an hour today just exploring the possibilities on paper, by sound, and on guitar. I'll start practicing this all over the fretboard tomorrow. Right now my brain is starting to sizzle.

This exercise helps me to do a few things:
Work on my theory
Learn my fretboard
Find interval patterns around root notes
Practice walking bass

The chords are non diatonic. If they were,they would be A minor, D minor and G7. But there are a lot of songs with non diatonic chord progressions. Normally this would be called a circle 6 . Walking should flow from one chord to the next, like in a direction. if it were me: C D C B, then A G F# E, then (Jump up an octave) D C B A, then G F E D.

 

[Wasnex]

I don't know what those sharps leading into the root note would be called. A nudge in understanding would help?

One term is chromatic approach (tone).

I suggest getting away from saying they are "sharps." Describe notes as either raise or lowered. Why? When you raise an Ab you don't get A#; you get A natural, which is a different note.

AFAIK, these approach tones are not labeled accurately. It should be CEGBb, AC#EEb, DF#AAb, GBDDb. These are all example of approaches that lead down a half step. These notes have been lowered, rather than raised.

Examples of approaches created by raising notes.
CEGG#->A, DF#AA#->G



From:

His definition of chromatic approach is a bit broader than mine. I wouldn't call a diatonic chord tone a chromatic approach. Chromatic is used for notes that have been altered (raised or lowered).

 

[aprod]

Google rhythm changes. Too many songs to list have this common progression. Hey Joe, My Girl to name a few.

 

[logdrum]

Firstly, major keys only contain 3 major chords, on degrees I, IV and V, so there is no single major key in which all of those major chords (C, A, D and G) are diatonic (of the key). If you were wanting to stay in the key of C, the second (ii) chord would need to be minor, i.e. Dm (D, F, A and not D, F#, A), as would the 6th (vi) chord (Am = A, C ,E, not A. C#, E).

The minor key does (oddly) contain 5 major chords on the III, IV, V, VI and VII degrees. The chords in your sequence can fit this pattern in the key of E Minor:

G=III (Root is minor 3rd from any of the minor scales: G, B, D);
A = IV (3rd is major 6th from the melodic minor scale: A, C#, E);
C=VI (Root is minor 6th from the natural and harmonic minor scales: C, E, G);
D = VII (Root is natural 7th from the natural minor scale: D, F#, A).

If you have a keyboard, try playing them all over a droning low E and you will hear it


The first thing that might help is renaming the notes to enharmonic equivalents. If you rename A# to Bb you can instantly see the first C chord becoming C7 (C, E, G, Bb). C7 is V of the keys of F or F minor, it can also be IV in the key of G minor or VII in the key of A minor. None of which contain all of the other chords - see above.

If you rename the other '?' notes they become Eb, Ab and Db respectively. Now with these new names you can easily see that they are the diminished 5th (or 'Flat 5', if you prefer) of the chord. In that capacity, and assuming the P5 and b5 don't sound together (at the same time), they might just be seen as chromatic passing notes that lead down to the root of the next chord. If those notes only appear momentarily in the bass and not in the upper voices you could leave it there.

Put them all together in the upper voices and with enough space between them you get some nice exotic-sounding textures that have interesting movement. There are many ways to name the chords - the most 'correct' name will depend on context so is up to you. And remember, despite what the jazz folks might tell you, not all chords need a fully-qualified name!!

Noting wrong with that progression at all. D and A do not have to be minor.

 

[SteveCS]

Noting wrong with that progression at all. D and A do not have to be minor.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, just that is wasn't in a single major key as the OP suggested it might be.

 

[bass12]

It’s great that you’re curious and wanting to learn more about theory. I would strongly suggest working your way through an introductory theory book. This will provide you with a much more direct and step-based approach to learning than jumping around as you currently seem to be.