Asterope cable?

[Doc Halo]

Does anyone here on the forum have this cable to do such tests?

Hey, Anthony. I actually tried the Asterope cable at Corner Music here in Nashville last week, and was able to A/B with a Pro-Co cable that happened to be handy. I ran a MM 4 though an AER Amp One; I can't say why, but the Asterope definitely sounded clearer--no doubt about it. (Why it sounded clearer and whether that clarity is worth $200 are open questions.)

I'm going to guess that these cables are only making it to stores now; Nashville hosted the NAMM show a few weeks ago, which is probably how Corner Music got their supply, and it's probably no coincidence that two of the big name endorsees you mention (Babbitt and Rhodes) live here, too.

--Dean

 

[toniwonkanobi]

ac3320:

Actually, I've been turning the one-end shield thing over in my mind and I've begun to think that there may be something to it. If the shield is connected to one of the signal wires at both ends, you've got a closed loop. This opens that loop up to effects due to Lenz's Law.

Interesting! I feel like having some students do an experiment with it this school year.

That's a difference between one end open shielded and one end closed.. but the cable still won't be directional as far as I can figure.

And yeah.. Back to Asterope. Other than just shouting "Snake Oil!" I'll hush now.

Dr./Mr. (what shall i call you prof?),

Actually, I deleted a previous post attesting to the definite directionality of my cable, or so i thought. I just tried the cable both ways and i heard no difference. Must have had a short, as you seem to be describing. Either way, switching the connectors solved the problem at first, and now there seems to be no problem with the cable going either way. Funny how life works lol
Thanks

 

[toniwonkanobi]

Hey, Anthony. I actually tried the Asterope cable at Corner Music here in Nashville last week, and was able to A/B with a Pro-Co cable that happened to be handy. I ran a MM 4 though an AER Amp One; I can't say why, but the Asterope definitely sounded clearer--no doubt about it. (Why it sounded clearer and whether that clarity is worth $200 are open questions.)

I'm going to guess that these cables are only making it to stores now; Nashville hosted the NAMM show a few weeks ago, which is probably how Corner Music got their supply, and it's probably no coincidence that two of the big name endorsees you mention (Babbitt and Rhodes) live here, too.

--Dean

Interesting maybe i'll have to give them a hollar. I agree on there being a coincidence of big nashville guys endorsing a product released at summer NAMM etc.

 

[Doc Halo]

Interesting maybe i'll have to give them a hollar. I agree on there being a coincidence of big nashville guys endorsing a product released at summer NAMM etc.

Now that I've had some time to look over the Asterope website, it seems most of their endorsees are based out of Nashville. Hmm. . .

 

[Rezdog]

Greetings,

hehehe....

Rezdog

 

[fdeck]

For instance, if you are testing for frequency response, what are you going to drive the cable with? A passive bass will react much differently from a signal generator.

Lift the ground terminal of the pickup and drive it with a signal generator that has a low impedance output. Plenty of fun to be had.

 

[toniwonkanobi]

Now that I've had some time to look over the Asterope website, it seems most of their endorsees are based out of Nashville. Hmm. . .

I hear you on it sounding better than the random one you tried it against. I'm tempted to pick one up and try it, but am worried it would sound basically like the other big name cable brand's "flagship" models (mogami's platinum, monster's studio 1000, Evidence audio lyric HG+). I'm waiting for someone to use one who comes from a "flagship" background. That'll sway me..

 

[Rick Auricchio]

Let's also consider the wisdom of using a $200 cable when the jacks in the instrument and amp were chosen for minimum price. Like 20 cents each.

A proper test would begin with a thorough cleaning of plugs and jacks, and new cable samples.

With a double-blind test, the listener doesn't get to know which cable is in use, and listening results often hover around the 50% mark, as would a coin toss.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Lift the ground terminal of the pickup and drive it with a signal generator that has a low impedance output. Plenty of fun to be had.

Right, you can also drive the pickup coil with a low Z speaker type coil.

 

[Derek Kiernan]

The question is not whether these cables can 'sound different', but if they can in some sense unrelated to capacitance, which anyone would have good reason to doubt. Buy one of their cables, measure the capacitance, cut a rated cable to length for equal capacitance, and see if there is any difference. A cable can't have coloration in the first place, so marketing their cable as uncolored, etc means nothing. It's the capacitance interacting with the pickup's inductance that makes changing cables have a sound. Low capacitance cables have been around for a long time but are not in wide use.

 

[LavaCable]

Hey, Anthony. I actually tried the Asterope cable at Corner Music here in Nashville last week, and was able to A/B with a Pro-Co cable that happened to be handy. I ran a MM 4 though an AER Amp One; I can't say why, but the Asterope definitely sounded clearer--no doubt about it. (Why it sounded clearer and whether that clarity is worth $200 are open questions.)

I'm going to guess that these cables are only making it to stores now; Nashville hosted the NAMM show a few weeks ago, which is probably how Corner Music got their supply, and it's probably no coincidence that two of the big name endorsees you mention (Babbitt and Rhodes) live here, too.

--Dean

Head over to Rock Block and compare one of our Clear Connect cables to the Asterope. The Clear Connect cable actually features new technology with its solder free plug design. We are more than happy to talk about it.

After buying the better cable take the 160 you have left over and stay in the Hilton 2 nights and grab a couple pizzas.

And if it ever goes bad we wont charge 30 to repair one end.

And yes other companies DO offer money back guarantees. Some of us offer that AND put out products that are affordable for real musicians with no need to hide how they are made.

We find that honesty and real values are appreciated by real musicians.

 

[walterw]

I ran a MM 4 though an AER Amp One; I can't say why, but the Asterope definitely sounded clearer--no doubt about it. (Why it sounded clearer and whether that clarity is worth $200 are open questions.)

i'm kinda surprised that an active instrument would reveal differences in any cables. the preamp should be eliminating any capacitance loss, i would have thought.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Head over to Rock Block and compare one of our Clear Connect cables to the Asterope. The Clear Connect cable actually features new technology with its solder free plug design. We are more than happy to talk about it.

That's a neat looking plug design.

People forget about the connectors. Years ago Craig Anderton talked about cable capacitance and showed that cables with molded plugs were lower in capacitance than cables that used heavy duty metal plugs. The reason was the plug itself!

Bill Lawrence was advocating solder less connectors and low capacitance cables a long time ago, even before George L stared doing it (looks like the same cables to me).

 

[aborgman]

For example, you can't model a bass pickup in something like SPICE or FEMM.

Of course you can model a pickup in SPICE.

For the love, it's just electromagnetics.

 

[aborgman]

The problem is that a pickup is an imperfect inductor, with resistance and capacitance, and SPICE has no model for that.

Right... so you have to create a model. Not exactly an unusual thing.

Plus a lot of SPICE inductor models do include parasitic capacitances, parasitic resistance, and series resistance components.

 

[LavaCable]

That's a neat looking plug design.

People forget about the connectors. Years ago Craig Anderton talked about cable capacitance and showed that cables with molded plugs were lower in capacitance than cables that used heavy duty metal plugs. The reason was the plug itself!

Bill Lawrence was advocating solder less connectors and low capacitance cables a long time ago, even before George L stared doing it (looks like the same cables to me).

You got it. People forget sometimes that solder is one extra link in the chain to get the signal to the amp. The Clear Connect plug eliminates the need for solder in the chain. The idea is the less between your guitar and amp the better. Alot of folks love that cable and its not uber expensive.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Of course you can model a pickup in SPICE.

For the love, it's just electromagnetics.

No, you can't. There are no models for it. Try it and see.

Several people at the pickup makers forum have been working on doing it, and one is a scientist with a PhD.

He wrote in the post liked to earlier:

[A note about modeling electronic things: Maxwell's equations imply the concepts of resistance, inductance and capacitance. The ideal components used in circuit analysis are based on these concepts. All actual components are more complicated, having, at least to some degree, all three properties. Modeling a pickup means finding a circuit of ideal components that describes the behavior of the pickup with reasonable accuracy.]

So the problem is currently there are no components in SPICE that work accurately.

Then he went on to say:

Next is the new model of the circuit for a pickup. It is based on the model for a non-ideal transformer. The magnetizing inductance from this model is the inductance of the pickup coil. This model also has an inductor which accounts for the leakage flux. A pickup has a lot of leakage flux because the cores are open, and so this inductance can be very large. In applying this model to a pickup, the effect of the eddy currents in the cores is represented by a resistive load on a one turn secondary. The inductance accounting for the flux leakage appears in series with this load, and it alters the effect of the eddy currents as a function of frequency.

Look at the model compared to real measurements here:

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The simple model described in his first post is an inductor with a resistance in series, a capacitor in parallel, and a resistor also in parallel. That's what you need to do to simulate a pickup, and it's a very simplified model that is not accurate.

Then the phase accuracy is also off:

Link Removed

Also, note he was NOT using SPICE. He said he did the calculation from scratch in a vector interpreter language he wrote.

There are many ICs you can't model in SPICE either for the same reasons.. no exisiting models. It's not saying it can't be don't, just not currently. The model has to be written first, and no one has figured out all the stuff going on in pickups yet.

The problem with pickups is they are a complex impedance device. You have current flowing through the coil, which then creates eddy currents, which then change the AC impedance. The inductance changes with frequency, and you have to model every part of the pickup. The alloy of steel used in pole pieces will alter things. Losses due to eddy currents is in parallel with the coil, but you can't just simulate it with a resistor because it changes with frequency.

Then you have things like self resonance, parasitic capacitance, mutual inductance, etc., and that all changes with the geometry, amount of turns, wire insulation thickness and dialectic constant. Then we have the magnet, it's permeability, the permeability of any steel parts, eddy currents in metal baseplates or covers, and so on.

So you have to figured out each of these before you can make a model. Trust me, people have been working on this for a while now.

I'd love to have a SPICE model, so I could plug in a few parameters and have a pickup designed without having to actually make one and test it, etc.

 

[aborgman]

No, you can't. There are no models for it. Try it and see.

There are no built in models for it.

Spice can basically model anything you have data for.

Look at the model compared to real measurements here:

Yes - models aren't necessarily accurate.

That is completely different than "you can't model it"

How would they compare a model to the real measurements, if you can't model it?

There are many ICs you can't model in SPICE either for the same reasons.. no exisiting models.

Right... so you create models.

Pretty much all of us EE's who regularly use SPICE regularly create and modify models.

So you have to figured out each of these before you can make a model. Trust me, people have been working on this for a while now.

No - you have to figure those out to possibly make an extremely accurate model. Of course, first you'd have to figure out which are really first order effects and which are so far down in the margin as to be unimportant.

I'd love to have a SPICE model, so I could plug in a few parameters and have a pickup designed without having to actually make one and test it, etc.

Heh... you can't even do that for circuitry involving reference designs and off the shelf IC's using manufacturer provided models.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

There are no built in models for it.

Spice can basically model anything you have data for.

Right, but getting the data is tricky, and so far, it hasn't been done. People can't even agree as to what is going on in pickups! And trying to tie together existing modeled components doesn't work well... yet.

I've also seen FEMM models of the magnetic circuit of various pickups, and they are not that accurate either.

So you would have to build a pickup and take measurements of it and then make a model. At that point, what's the point? Change one thing on the pickup and you have to start over again. I think it's a cool idea, but so far has no practical value.

 

[aborgman]

Right, but getting the data is tricky, and so far, it hasn't been done.

Actually getting the data isn't the problem - problem is, it only models that one individual pickup with that exact input source. It doesn't provide any way to model the effects of changes... to do that, you have to go to component models... and that is where:

People can't even agree as to what is going on in pickups! And trying to tie together existing modeled components doesn't work well... yet.

...comes in.


You can model a pickup accurately - but the model isn't useful. Or you can build a model out variable components, and it isn't necessarily very accurate.

I've also seen FEMM models of the magnetic circuit of various pickups, and they are not that accurate either.

As always, models are only as accurate as the math and models underlying them.