Auditory learner?

[AndyMopley]

All

This is not a thread about memorizing/learning songs (Ed Fuqua did an excellent job at this already!) rather it's about our own personal style of learning chords to a tune.
For context, back in my rock band playing days, when I didn't know a tune, guitarist or keyboard players would shout them out at rehearsal, cementing them in my head.

(Many) years later, I came to learn that memorizing information better when heard rather than read usually means you are an auditory learner with a stronger, faster connection to the brain's auditory processing centers.

Based on this, I am going to experiment with some jazz tunes to pressure test this assumption - in other words, have someone (or something?) shout out the chords to a jazz standard that I haven't played before and see how much they "stick" in my head. Granted rock tunes are somewhat simpler to commit to memory, but I am hoping that this approach may perhaps be more speciific to my leaning style.

Let's see what happens! An alternative to this would be of course to "hear" the chords, but this is (currently) a bridge too far!

 

[Groove Doctor]

Do you play guitar or piano?
IME you get better at hearing chords when you actually play those chords… esp on the very instrument you’re transcribing.

 

[Karl Kaminski]

I can think of alot of Standards that would be hard to 'call out progressions'—if it were not for 'the number method').
this would also be a challenging task for gospel music as the progressions can be root based and 'basic' (I-IV-V, sometimes VI)chords. But most contemporary gospel, quickly evolves into progressions in inversions and alt harmonies. So now as a bassist we're learning/memorizing 'two parts' the chords and the voiceleading in the root motion.

Im a believer in "theres always more than one method/approach", but I know (for me) I hate when someone shouts out changes. I prefer to hear what they play and make mental notes for 'next time' thru that section—I may even jot it down as we play for next time. (I prefer to hear the actual sound of the roots/inversions/voice leading of their chords, it seems to translate the fastest in my mind.)

I think this means im an auditory learner? I just know that I do best 'experientially'—by actually doing.

 

[bass player 53]

In my opinion, you should do the thing
that you don’t want to do, that is,
ear training. Good jazz musicians can hear a tune and hear the intervals that define the tune. That is, there are typically 2-5-1 changes, 1-4 changes,
1-6-2-5 major and minor changes, etc.,
that you should immediately hear.
Then you should identify all the rest
of the intervals and quickly identify
the types of chords, major, minor,
dominant 7th, diminished, etc.
and some basic altered chords.
Playing the chord types on piano
or guitar is useful, but just hearing
and knowing how chords sound
is truly fundamental.
Learning melodies, improvisation,
and playing common tunes over and
over will complete the package.

 

[bass player 53]

Not to make too much of this thing,
but…
Take a tune like All of Me.
Commonly played in C.
The first chord is C major. You should
hear that it’s a major chord.
The next chord is… two whole steps up.
You should be able to hear that.
Ok, so it’s E. You should also hear
that it’s a dominant 7th chord (E7).
The next chord is… a forth interval
up from the E7, that is A. You should
hear the interval, and recognize that
it’s a dominant chord, A7.
The next chord is… a forth interval
up from the A7, that is D. You should
hear the interval, and recognize that
it’s a minor chord, D minor 7.
This goes on and on.
This is a fundamental skill that all
good jazz musicians, regardless of
instrument, possess.

Sure, you can memorize 1000 tunes,
read the changes from a fake book,
or have someone call out the changes,
but, really…
That misses the essence of what
being a jazz musician is all about.

 

[AndyMopley]

Totally agree that seasoned players memorize melodies, chord progressions, and nuances directly from recordings or by watching experienced mentors in a communal, oral, and often apprenticeships-based tradition.
But let's analyze this way - let's say Davis says to Chambers...I've written a new tune, called "So What" - now I would think Davis would either have the tune written on paper already (with the chords symbols) or would he have said to PC, I'll play the tune on piano and you can hear the chords?
This is where I am wondering how PC (to use an example) would have learned it...

 

[bass player 53]

Ok, well the example that you picked
has been extensively documented and
analyzed. There’s even a book about
the making of the recording and all
the parts have been transcribed.
Miles Davis was known for basically
presenting ‘sketches’ of his tunes,
and yes, PC, excellent bassist with
big ears would have heard everything.
His melody on bass and the bass line
have been extensively analyzed and
explained in numerous YouTube videos
and books.
So What, has essentially two chords,
with the Dorian mode or the so-called
Bill Evans stacked 4th’s minor 7th (11).
I have no doubt that PC heard quickly
the sound, as did all the others.
It is also well known that Bill Evans
explained the harmony- Evans had
heard all kinds of harmony from his
analysis of the ‘Impressionist’ school
of contemporary composers.

Yes, once again, good jazz musicians
hear the chord qualities and
progressions away from their instruments. You don’t need perfect
pitch for this either- just a recognition
of harmony- the sounds of the chord
types, some extensions, and the
interval sequences. This is also
common in quality formal music
degree programs for all types of
music. Ear training is a fundamental
skill.

 

[fdeck]

Totally agree that seasoned players memorize melodies, chord progressions, and nuances directly from recordings or by watching experienced mentors in a communal, oral, and often apprenticeships-based tradition.
But let's analyze this way - let's say Davis says to Chambers...I've written a new tune, called "So What" - now I would think Davis would either have the tune written on paper already (with the chords symbols) or would he have said to PC, I'll play the tune on piano and you can hear the chords?
This is where I am wondering how PC (to use an example) would have learned it...

I can't speak to that particular situation, but have been in a couple of bands that have played original jazz compositions. I'm in one right now, with two members who are composing material. The starting point is usually some sort of written sketch, at varying levels of refinement. What we end up gigging will likely be edited several times. For instance the composer might decide he doesn't like a particular phrase, or that it's unplayable, and will replace it with something else.

For a number of our tunes, the pianist is really good at creating beats -- harmonies with specific rhythms. Then the sax player will write a melody. Then we'll work on it in rehearsal to turn it into something that we want to perform.

Remember there's some selection bias going on here. Paul Chambers was in that studio because he was already at the top of his game, which means Miles expected him to pick stuff up instantly. But also, the jazz world cultivates these skills. Another genre is folk music. I attend an annual summer "fiddle camp" and have accompanied fiddlers in other situations, and they have a very strong preference for learning tunes without charts.

 

[Karl Kaminski]

This is where I am wondering how PC (to use an example) would have learned it...

[in your best Miles voice]

"Hey, PC. Play this over the [A]... <Miles plays the phrase>.
Move it to Ebm for the bridge"

Then the intro was worked out with Bill and the whole thing came together during rehearsal.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

All

This is not a thread about memorizing/learning songs (Ed Fuqua did an excellent job at this already!) rather it's about our own personal style of learning chords to a tune.
For context, back in my rock band playing days, when I didn't know a tune, guitarist or keyboard players would shout them out at rehearsal, cementing them in my head.

(Many) years later, I came to learn that memorizing information better when heard rather than read usually means you are an auditory learner with a stronger, faster connection to the brain's auditory processing centers.

Based on this, I am going to experiment with some jazz tunes to pressure test this assumption - in other words, have someone (or something?) shout out the chords to a jazz standard that I haven't played before and see how much they "stick" in my head. Granted rock tunes are somewhat simpler to commit to memory, but I am hoping that this approach may perhaps be more speciific to my leaning style.

Let's see what happens! An alternative to this would be of course to "hear" the chords, but this is (currently) a bridge too far!

For me, when leaning songs without music, instead of learning chords by name like the chord is an “A”. I learn by root 4th 5th 6m and so forth. I then learn the progressions of the intro, verses, bridge, prechours. And outro. Them I leaned any identifiable licks or lines that are necessary. Then I just assemble the pieces in the correct place.

This system is also very useful instead transposition. You just find the root and go from there.

 

[AndyMopley]

[in your best Miles voice]

"Hey, PC. Play this over the [A]... <Miles plays the phrase>.
Move it to Ebm for the bridge"

Then the intro was worked out with Bill and the whole thing came together during rehearsal.

The holy grail!
Thanks!!

 

[Groove Doctor]

Not to make too much of this thing,
but…
Take a tune like All of Me.
Commonly played in C.
The first chord is C major. You should
hear that it’s a major chord.
The next chord is… two whole steps up.
You should be able to hear that.
Ok, so it’s E. You should also hear
that it’s a dominant 7th chord (E7).
The next chord is… a forth interval
up from the E7, that is A. You should
hear the interval, and recognize that
it’s a dominant chord, A7.
The next chord is… a forth interval
up from the A7, that is D. You should
hear the interval, and recognize that
it’s a minor chord, D minor 7.
This goes on and on.
This is a fundamental skill that all
good jazz musicians, regardless of
instrument, possess.

Sure, you can memorize 1000 tunes,
read the changes from a fake book,
or have someone call out the changes,
but, really…
That misses the essence of what
being a jazz musician is all about.

Exactly. !! Very well said.

I’ve found the best players have a good ear, a good understanding of chord theory & chord progressions, and a good repertoire of songs.

Hot Tip:
Learn the tunes that expose your ear to the common chord progressions, and do a bit of analysing of these chord progressions.
eg. Autumn Leaves - a study of 251’s in major and minor.
eg. I Will Survive - a study in cycle of 4ths (5ths).

Learn a bunch of mare advanced chord progressions - like tritone substitutions
eg. Dm7 - Dbmaj7 - Cmaj7 where the bII is a sub for the V7 chord.
- moving of key centres throughout a song
eg. Beyond The Sea.

You might need a really good teacher to give you a list of 20-30 Jazz standards that cover the most common progressions.
(Somebody here might share with you such a list…. )

 

[mambo4]

I've always felt that, as far as ear training goes, learning to recognize common functional chord progression by ear
is both easier and much more useful than other kinds of ear training.

functional meaning thinking of progressions not as C Am F G7 but as "roman numeral" chords I iv IV V7
The unique sonic character of a functional progression persist in any key

Learn the tunes that expose your ear to the common chord progressions,

For jazz and much of 20th century pop the biggest "bang for your buck"
songs to learn for chord progression recognition were
Rhythm changes and basic blues variations , at least for me.
These two seem to have their DNA in most of the real book.

Tuber David Bennet has a wonderful playlist of many common chord progressions

 

[mambo4]

I iv IV V7

error: it's a
I vi IV V7