Tama Rhythm Watch is a useful tool for anyone needing to keep accurate time rehearsing or gigging. Audio through headphones, internal audio or into monitors and lights for silent metronome. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Band rehearsal with a metronome?
- Thread starter abarson
- Start date
We rehearse and play love with a click track going through IEMs. No excuse to get out of time with our set up.
I have spent all of my life living with the met. As a marching percussion guy, and now full time instructor, the met is our religion.
I want to try the whole thing where we run a met through the PA at practice. I would start with just me and the drummer, and we would figure things out. Then layer the guitar and vox on when we have our stuff together. We are preparing to record, so this is going to be HUGE if we are going to use our time wisely. I am also going to have to teach those guys about half-time feels and double time feels and how they "live" on the same met pulse.
There is no way ANY musician can learn to keep time with out a met. Time is a learned thing. It is not gained by "playing along with other bands" exclusively, or "just listening to X person in the band". I spend my whole day teaching how to analyze pulse, subdivision, meter, speed etc. I have been doing this for 27 years. In the marching band world, sense of pulse is the most crucial thing to keeping the group together since the performers are sometimes 30-40 yards apart. I have studied the physics of sound, and how that relationship effects time control. How distance and the speed of sound effect our reaction to a perceived pulse. How to perceive and manipulate that pulse in any listening environment, as well as changing listening environments, to keep a large group of people together.
In 27+ years he kids/adults I have taught who don't use a met NEVER gain a solid sense of time. Never, nada.....
As many have mentioned, good time starts with PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE of how to feel subdivision against the pulse. Knowing where 1,2,3,4 (5,6,7 etc) is, and how to then break that into the subdivisions of 8th's and 16th notes is the crucial component. EVERY musician I have ever encountered (in 27 years) who can't count, does not have a good sense of time, end of story. Many are able to GREATLY compensate, but when they are alone (like in the studio, or an on stage solo situation) it is like being on a boat in a whirl pool. This goes for all instrument families as well. Note that these types are usually the loudest about:
1) how everyone else BUT them have no sense of time
2) they don't need to practice with a met because of (insert excuse here)
Playing with the met is scary because it exposes the hardest element of music...time. The manipulation of space (nothing) into organized, metered chunks of space. This is hard! People don't like hard. It exposes peoples vulnerability. Professionals get over this. Musicians get over this.
Sorry this is so long, but to me it is a no brainer to use a met in all practice/rehearsal situations. You do eventually need to ween off and then build trust for live applications. At that point, "good time" is not about staying at a certain BPM, but making sure that feel and fluctuation happen TOGETHER. Because time shift is UNAVOIDABLE when the human element is in charge. Slight tempo alterations create style and groove differences. I am talking 1-5 BPM shifts. Anything over that will be noticeable and percived as "wrong". Hopefully the training with the met will allow the musicians to be able to shift around the pulse to be human, but not to (accidentally) push or pull tempo
Ok...I will shut up now
I want to try the whole thing where we run a met through the PA at practice. I would start with just me and the drummer, and we would figure things out. Then layer the guitar and vox on when we have our stuff together. We are preparing to record, so this is going to be HUGE if we are going to use our time wisely. I am also going to have to teach those guys about half-time feels and double time feels and how they "live" on the same met pulse.
There is no way ANY musician can learn to keep time with out a met. Time is a learned thing. It is not gained by "playing along with other bands" exclusively, or "just listening to X person in the band". I spend my whole day teaching how to analyze pulse, subdivision, meter, speed etc. I have been doing this for 27 years. In the marching band world, sense of pulse is the most crucial thing to keeping the group together since the performers are sometimes 30-40 yards apart. I have studied the physics of sound, and how that relationship effects time control. How distance and the speed of sound effect our reaction to a perceived pulse. How to perceive and manipulate that pulse in any listening environment, as well as changing listening environments, to keep a large group of people together.
In 27+ years he kids/adults I have taught who don't use a met NEVER gain a solid sense of time. Never, nada.....
As many have mentioned, good time starts with PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE of how to feel subdivision against the pulse. Knowing where 1,2,3,4 (5,6,7 etc) is, and how to then break that into the subdivisions of 8th's and 16th notes is the crucial component. EVERY musician I have ever encountered (in 27 years) who can't count, does not have a good sense of time, end of story. Many are able to GREATLY compensate, but when they are alone (like in the studio, or an on stage solo situation) it is like being on a boat in a whirl pool. This goes for all instrument families as well. Note that these types are usually the loudest about:
1) how everyone else BUT them have no sense of time
2) they don't need to practice with a met because of (insert excuse here)
Playing with the met is scary because it exposes the hardest element of music...time. The manipulation of space (nothing) into organized, metered chunks of space. This is hard! People don't like hard. It exposes peoples vulnerability. Professionals get over this. Musicians get over this.
Sorry this is so long, but to me it is a no brainer to use a met in all practice/rehearsal situations. You do eventually need to ween off and then build trust for live applications. At that point, "good time" is not about staying at a certain BPM, but making sure that feel and fluctuation happen TOGETHER. Because time shift is UNAVOIDABLE when the human element is in charge. Slight tempo alterations create style and groove differences. I am talking 1-5 BPM shifts. Anything over that will be noticeable and percived as "wrong". Hopefully the training with the met will allow the musicians to be able to shift around the pulse to be human, but not to (accidentally) push or pull tempo
Ok...I will shut up now
Last edited:
Based on the majority of the responses here, it looks like it's worth trying a metronome through the PA during our next rehearsal. I think it might help all of us in the long run, and I like the idea of not isolating or singling out the drummer.
The BPM detection apps look interesting as well. I don't know if I want to get into the hardware like the Beat Bug, but I can mention it.
The BPM detection apps look interesting as well. I don't know if I want to get into the hardware like the Beat Bug, but I can mention it.
Begging your pardon, but if your drummer has inconsistent time, and worse yet, if he can't even spot the points at which he begins to lose the tempo, then by definition he does not have "great chops". Because chops doesn't consist just of flashy technique or great speed. It also entails having a strong command of all the musical requirements of the instrument.
While it is true that tempo is arrived at through group consensus, rather than as the responsibility of one player, it is also true that keeping good time is as fundamental for a drummer as finding and maintaining the groove is for a bassist. While using a metronome during rehearsals is unlikely to pose any new problems - other than making it more difficult to find an "organic" tempo that pushes and pulls slightly, or the metronome itself becoming a crutch - ultimately your drummer is going to have to find a solution to his tempo problems via his own study, personal practice, and playing experience.
MM
That's something common but that's your green light to leave the band
never ever tune up your bass and say that it's an insult if someone says you're out of tune. WHAT? ME ? NOO, IT'S YOU!
I've had all of those and proceeded to kick them out of the band or quit myself. now we play with addictive drums2, and record everything trough reaper and then analyze. a real humbling experience that helped us improve more in 6 moths then i have gotten better in the last 5 years. There is a reason that studio cats are among the best of musicians ever. Another thing is because of our setup (no amps, all trough digital mixer then to daw-reaper where we add guitar amp, drums, EQ, FX and back to our IEMs) we have trouble with singers. They come all full of themselves and get their ego crushed and wrecked when they sing trough our super-clean setup. everysingleoneofthem heard themselves for real for the first time and just quit or refused to sing like that. Only one recognized he sucked and started working on his singing for real. We are keeping this one
When confronted with truth that one is much worse in playing/singing than she/he thinks she/he is, one can do two things; blame everything else or get better. ones who go the path of recognizing own's mistakes and improving are those who latter become great musicians, and blamers are stuck in the garage and their own little world where everyone else is to blame for their failures; sound guy, metronome, audience, music industry, life, freemasons, illuminati and lizard people.
I think there totally is a place for rehearsing with a metronome/backing tracks.
An excellent tool.
I'm going to be harsh here. The only times I had to do this (click out the vocals PA at rehearsal) was with really crappy drummers. I of course know tempo is up to the whole band, but there's drummers that COMMAND the band and others who simply can't. This last group is a waste of time IMHO. It's not even a question of deciding any tempo, I mean, I played with many drummers who used a click track (mostly when sequencing stuff) and still COMMANDED the band. So if you're forced to drill every member of the band's ears with a metronome to control what your drummer is doing you're looking the wrong way (been there, done that, lost a lot of life -and bandmates- along that path). You'll only bring out his weakness in a more humilliating manner. Some people have rhythm in their brain/soul/heart/being. Some others don't, therefore should not be making any music, period.
Last edited:
Give a click track (for everyone) a try. As others have said, meter is the whole band's responsibility. Sometimes intentionally picking up the tempo (a few bpm's) and dropping back is a good tool--- if it's intentional.
I always knew I pushed the beat too much--- that became real obvious when I gigged with a drum machine---- that was a real lesson in listening.
I always knew I pushed the beat too much--- that became real obvious when I gigged with a drum machine---- that was a real lesson in listening.
Hearing a click thru the pa over live drums means an obnoxious beep that will be incredibly loud.
I have tried this several times. No matter how loud we turned it up, the drummer couldn't hear it well enough, and the rest of us were getting deafened.
Get headphones.
I have tried this several times. No matter how loud we turned it up, the drummer couldn't hear it well enough, and the rest of us were getting deafened.
Get headphones.
Our band doesn't consist of pros in the slightest sense and the drummer is the weakest link, but he can keep the beat usually without rushing. He doesn't practice with a metronome and we wanted him to record to a click track. No chance he always rushed. We turned the click track off, he played then we turned the click track on to compare and it was on point.
One day I came up with a syncopated riff that carried a beat over into the next measure - hope that's correctly described. He would always hit the 1 on the 4, because he didn't get that I play a dotted quarter note on the 4 and didn't hit on the 1. I told him to buy a metronome.
I have one since day 1 of my bass playing days, because a friend who got me into picking up the bass said it's the most important tool. Without sense of time I would never be able to play with other people and it's correct.
One day I came up with a syncopated riff that carried a beat over into the next measure - hope that's correctly described. He would always hit the 1 on the 4, because he didn't get that I play a dotted quarter note on the 4 and didn't hit on the 1. I told him to buy a metronome.
I have one since day 1 of my bass playing days, because a friend who got me into picking up the bass said it's the most important tool. Without sense of time I would never be able to play with other people and it's correct.
I often noticed that we have some small changes in tempo during the song. Often the verse is a bit slower, then the chorus is 3 bpm more etc. This led to serious problems when playing to the click track for the recording. The "feeling" was gone, nothing seemed to fit together. Then there were the first calls for "screw that click", it's destroying the mojo and stuff like this.
And then this happened: With every time we played the song to the metronome, we improved the timing significantly. After a couple of tries, the feeling came back and later we couldn't understand how it was possible before, to have several paces in the song. It now felt as the natural thing to do when playing in time.
I think timing is very important especially during fills, in transitions between parts etc.
And then this happened: With every time we played the song to the metronome, we improved the timing significantly. After a couple of tries, the feeling came back and later we couldn't understand how it was possible before, to have several paces in the song. It now felt as the natural thing to do when playing in time.
I think timing is very important especially during fills, in transitions between parts etc.
Short of playing to backing tracks and other sequenced type affairs, I would find it a real drag to be constricted by that in a rehearsal type setting while still getting my feet planted in a new band. Is he *brand new* or are we talking only a couple BPM variance? I'd let that slide until the real for-show rehearsals to really tighten down everything....but if it's WILD tempo shifts then yeah, I'd see a benefit there, sure.
That all said, I play in a group that plays "Spirit of Radio" occasionally, and the drummer there always looks to me to count the entirety of the intro... I mean I know it's a group effort but I know he never counts it out and THAT is a real drag.
If music is a living / breathing collaborative, let it develop in the moment. A little ebb and flow is great in live music. Just my opinion here.
That all said, I play in a group that plays "Spirit of Radio" occasionally, and the drummer there always looks to me to count the entirety of the intro... I mean I know it's a group effort but I know he never counts it out and THAT is a real drag.
If music is a living / breathing collaborative, let it develop in the moment. A little ebb and flow is great in live music. Just my opinion here.
Last edited:
Timing is a sensitive issue. It is everybody's responsibility to keep good time. Even the singers! Don't get too lost in "tempo" and lose the "moment".
Just for kicks, and if you're in a cover band, put a click on the material you are covering. Depending on the material, you will more than likely hear tempo fluctuations. Verses may be laid back 2-3 bpm and choruses/bridges may speed up 2-3 bpm. It's common and very useful to build/release energy during a song. Lotsandlotsa great tunes have lotsaandlotsa tempo fluctuations. Over every genre. And then there's the more intricate balance of a "group push-pull effect" on a groove that help make great recordings what they are: Great!
Having said that, it's not a bad thing to have great timing and to be able to control tempos as a band. Having a portion of a rehearsal dedicated to playing to a click is a great idea. For everybody in the group. Not just the drummer! It's alllll part of the learning process!
Just for kicks, and if you're in a cover band, put a click on the material you are covering. Depending on the material, you will more than likely hear tempo fluctuations. Verses may be laid back 2-3 bpm and choruses/bridges may speed up 2-3 bpm. It's common and very useful to build/release energy during a song. Lotsandlotsa great tunes have lotsaandlotsa tempo fluctuations. Over every genre. And then there's the more intricate balance of a "group push-pull effect" on a groove that help make great recordings what they are: Great!
Having said that, it's not a bad thing to have great timing and to be able to control tempos as a band. Having a portion of a rehearsal dedicated to playing to a click is a great idea. For everybody in the group. Not just the drummer! It's alllll part of the learning process!
Apparently unlike many here, I don't approach this from an adversarial POV. That in itself can aid in working out any timing issues better than "you're wrong, I'm right, I quit".
Maybe I've been extraordinarily lucky but in decades of gigging I've never been in a situation where we've needed a metronome to sort out tempo issues. The bigger issue I've seen is with musicians trying to force ten pounds of it into a five pound bag and that can usually be remedied with a simple conversation. More often than not I just work harder at establishing the beat and muddle through.
Maybe I've been extraordinarily lucky but in decades of gigging I've never been in a situation where we've needed a metronome to sort out tempo issues. The bigger issue I've seen is with musicians trying to force ten pounds of it into a five pound bag and that can usually be remedied with a simple conversation. More often than not I just work harder at establishing the beat and muddle through.
Last week at practice we were working out a particularly slow song with a lot of rests and some weird counting. The metronome was super helpful. It was the drummer's idea, everyone thought it helped. Now we are back off it but if we had another one like that, we'd do it again without a moment's thought.
