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Double Bass Bas bar wood - growth ring count?

C

ctregan

Jun 25, 2007
523
3
Syracuse N.Y.
#1
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I need to make a new bass bar. Here are the choices for wood, at my disposal:

A) Wide growth rings.

B) Extremely tight growth rings.

I am on the fence; Wood "B" might transmit vibrations better because of the tight grain. Wood "A" might be looser and allow the top to move more.

If anyone has some answers or theories, please chime. Thanks!
 
#3
There are people who fit bassbars perpendicular to the top, and those who fit them perpendicular to the rib edges, and so despite what Mike seems to be implying ;) I would say that either would do, and especially if you are careful about how you align the grain when fitting.

I don't know about the transmitting vibrations thingy. For me, a bassbar is there to support the top under the E foot and spread the movement of the bridge to the rest of the plate without making it so rigid you lose volume and bass response. So, we leave it high under the bridge and taper it towards the ends to control the stiffness. How high? how tapered? Depends on the top.

All things equal, the tight grained wood will be a stiffer bass bar. But things are rarely equal.
 
#9
Yes you have a point.

On the other hand, although I have fitted plenty, I have never bought a bass bar blank or soundpost blank in my life. They are just sticks of wood. Special expensive sticks with magical properties perhaps, but sticks nonetheless.

If they are the ingredients you have, I'd go with B as well. And plenty of anchovies.
 
#11
Craig:

I'm regularly in the same spot looking for the ideal piece of spruce for a given job. If we were in a neutral and visual world, I would probably want something that falls in between the two of those boards. That said, for a bassbar, visuals have nothing to do with what I'm looking for. Density, deflection, and a bit of calculated number crunching, like the weight / mass compared to the beam deflection and the speed of sound through them are how I base my choice. In general (very, very general...), between those two boards, I'd most like to chose the one that is both the lightest and stiffest. I'll also throw in a bit of subjective selection based upon the arching, graduations, and type of spruce used for the top. Species, tree to tree, and board to board have tremendous variation.

Is this for a new top or a repair? With new tops, i have plenty of scrap left over so I can make a few experiments to add to the judgement list. I ALWAYS deflection test to breaking point and I'm also very concerned with- I don't have the exact technical term for it - the quality of elasticity in the board. Does everything rebound back to close original shape after the breaking point- red spruce is very light, stiff, and rebounds like this very well, while sitka is in the middle for weight, but tends to sort of just compression flab over and never really wants to return as well.

More on the subjective side- drop both of them on the tablesaw or floor. How do they ring out? If one is lively and sonorous and the other is completely dead like a rotten pumpkin hitting the floor.... the lively one goes on the bass and the pumpkin goes in the woodstove tonight!

As with everything, my ideas are mine; ask 7 more luthiers and you'll get 11 more different responses....good luck and let us know what the end result is. A lot of times the results tend to be very counter-intuitive, like the flabby wide grained board winds up being very stiff and responsive and the tight grained just the opposite.

j.
 
#12
I have a few more pieces of spruce that might work, I'll look them over today.

Spruce wood is hard to find locally. Metropolitan Music is asking $40, for a (sight unseen) bass bar blank.

I used western red cedar once, with success - maybe the "relaxed" nature of the cedar was a good thing? On the other hand, will a stiff bar, make for a harsh or bright sounding bass?

I have some engelmann, sitka, and European spruce available. The grain is not always a perfect perpendicular pattern, but with shaving, it can be aligned better. It is for a old bass repair. No $$ involved, just a hobby project.

I am working alone, so its good to get feedback on some of these errant ideas!
 
#13
I agree w. James on the tap tone test, which one has a nice ring to it.
My feeling is if you're putting in all the man hours to take the top off, remove the old bar, fit the new one , etc, then why use a 2x 4 for your bass bar, unless it has a nice boing to it.
I live 3 hours from Metropolitan and have driven up there for tone wood... They're bass bars are very good although I did cherry pick the ones I liked. Did the same for my maple neck grafting blocks which interestingly have been seasoning for a little over a year in my shop. I weighed them when they came in and now they are almost 1/2 a pound lighter...
Wish I could do the same for my waist....:hmm:
 
#15
@forester > laconic.

@craig, don't forget, you control the stiffness with your shaping. You can at least in theory use two completely different sticks of wood and end up with the same result.
What you can't control so much is the inherent structure of the wood; you only really need to choose a stick that you are confident will last and not collapse when you have shaped it how you want. I have used tight-grained WRC too with good results, and five years on no sag. Check in again in 30 years and ask me how it's holding up.

@Mark - I live $2500 and 24 hours from Metropolitan music if I want to cherry pick :-(
I wonder if they will get any more neck grafting blocks? Every time I ask they have none. You have any surplus?
 
#17
Since this is already a strong thread derail....why are you buying wood from a retail shop rather than going directly to the source???? There are plenty of great wood dealers around that have excellent materials for half the price (or less) than the retail guys sell it for after they add on their markup. You get an entirely different experience and grade of wood when you spend an afternoon and go through 4000 sets just so you can cherry pick your favorite 6 to take home that day. If you mail order them from the wood guys, most are very on top of their game so you can give pretty detailed instructions on exactly what you want. If you carve into a top and find a huge knot or inclusion, 99% of the time the wood guys will send out another free of charge; try that with an internet retail parts shop.'Just sayin'....
 
#19
Order direct from someone like Bruce Harvey at Orcas Island Tonewoods- you can typically buy a 2x4 or more of sitka from him for the price Metropolitain charges for one skinny bassbar (last time I checked, theirs were sitka too). High mountain tonewoods up in Canada usually has a lot of spruce, the same goes for Pacific Rim tonewoods, and John over at Oldworld Tonewoods generally goes out of his way to give folks a great deal on nice European sets. Those places are where the retailers buy their woods from before they double or triple price back on you. When I go direct to one of those guys, on a good day I can buy an entire double bass billet for about $200, and I've had offers where if I buy 10-25 or more I've had them offer me sets for $50 each!!!! John Tepper of Tepper Tonewoods in southern Oregon will sell you amazing figured maple back sets complete with matching ribs for about $600. Those guys can all tell you when and where it was cut, and they'll usually send you detailed photos of the actual board you are purchasing and give you the specs on it..

You hippies gotta get hip to stop payin' overinflated prices and bringin' down the neighborhood. 'Have to send some o' my chubby dixie hillbilly thugs over to your place and whack some sense into y'all with that overpriced bassbar if ya' keep it up....

'Jus sayin'....:)
 
#20
well, send them on down James but pack their bags with top sets for me. If i was in a position to buy 20 sets i would, but even then shipping heavy stuff and fumigating and customs etc etc into australia gets to be a pain. i buy parts from metro and other places cos the prices are manageable and they ship fast. nothing wrong with that :-)
 

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