bass signal to board-using amp DI + aviom system...

[joebar]

I am more or less asking this question because our sound persons at our church seem to be clueless about all things sound related.

the team is currently using an aviom system with IEM's and the personal mixing posts (whatever you call them).

it is a new change for them and they are still working out the bugs.

we have tried a few different ways to run the bass signal to house-
-at one time they were running a DI box before the amplifier input as to allow the amp to be a personal bass monitor pre-aviom.
-we have tried running the DI from the amplifier with the choice of going pre or post EQ signal.
-right now, they are running the amp DI + they have a patch cord running from the padded input on the amp to a patch on the aviom mixer (I m not sure where or what it does). I was told this was a way to isolate the individual controls from my personal mixer to avoid changing the levels on the house.
this is stupid IMO because my own rig only has one input and that takes away my option to use it IF this is a good way to run it.

I don't actually know enough about sound reinforcement nor do I think that this current idea even is working.
I still don't seem to have any control to hear myself; I rely largely on the bass amp to hear/feel myself because of the ongoing incompetence in the soundbox.

what would be the best way to run a signal to the board and still maintain good mixing control at my post? the IEM's we are using currently are not good and do not capture bass well-hence the reason for amps.
ideally, they want to move away from amps altogether.

 

[s0c9]

At church we use the Aviom system. My bass (when I play.. we rotate) goes DI into the system via Tech 21 Bass Amp driver. There are NO AMPS on stage.. everything is DI, including guitar (from whatever device the guitar that week is using).
The Aviom system is hooked up via direct outs from the console (Yammy MC7) and fed to the distribution unit back stage. Each personal monitor on the stage is wired CAT5.

I'm wired IEM from my station, but I use 1964 Quads - the bass on them is downright silly !!! And it works fine for me.

Not sure if your ears are the issue, or the hookup. As both a sound guy and a player, I have never understood the need for either bass/guitar to "feel" their sound. That tells me they're not listening.. but that's just my opinion. So yeah, I get that some folks need it, much as some folks will NEVER get used to IEM's.. not matter the quality/price.

I would keep it simple. Go DI to the console, and take your Aviom mix from there. If you can't get what you need thru the ears you have... you may need to upgrade. As soon as you run multiple input sources for the same instrument you have challenges over whom is in control. The FOH guys don't like random amps being on stage that you can lean over and "tweak".

Plus, I've found that folks who practice at home with headphones find the jump to IEM's the least challenging.
YMMV

 

[joebar]

i am the same guy on the other thread that ordered the quads too remember?

anyhow, if I have good IEM's I wont need the amp; I have no problem with that.

but aside from all that, nobody seems able to dial in a mix; they have that software for the overall mix on the I pad or something which nobody knows how to use.

 

[s0c9]

i am the same guy on the other thread that ordered the quads too remember?

anyhow, if I have good IEM's I wont need the amp; I have no problem with that.

but aside from all that, nobody seems able to dial in a mix; they have that software for the overall mix on the I pad or something which nobody knows how to use.

Sorry... I did not remember you being the "guy" that ordered the quads

So is the issue the mix (or lack thereof) in the Avioms or the FOH mix?
If Avioms.. that's generally due to input (trim) levels on each channel at FOH.
If it's the FOH mix (in general) then other than experience and education level of those running it, you're pretty much SOL.
is the FOH console an X32?

 

[Geri O]

I am more or less asking this question because our sound persons at our church seem to be clueless about all things sound related.

the team is currently using an aviom system with IEM's and the personal mixing posts (whatever you call them).

it is a new change for them and they are still working out the bugs.

we have tried a few different ways to run the bass signal to house-
-at one time they were running a DI box before the amplifier input as to allow the amp to be a personal bass monitor pre-aviom.
-we have tried running the DI from the amplifier with the choice of going pre or post EQ signal.
-right now, they are running the amp DI + they have a patch cord running from the padded input on the amp to a patch on the aviom mixer (I m not sure where or what it does). I was told this was a way to isolate the individual controls from my personal mixer to avoid changing the levels on the house.
this is stupid IMO because my own rig only has one input and that takes away my option to use it IF this is a good way to run it.

I don't actually know enough about sound reinforcement nor do I think that this current idea even is working.
I still don't seem to have any control to hear myself; I rely largely on the bass amp to hear/feel myself because of the ongoing incompetence in the soundbox.

what would be the best way to run a signal to the board and still maintain good mixing control at my post? the IEM's we are using currently are not good and do not capture bass well-hence the reason for amps.
ideally, they want to move away from amps altogether.

Geez....Read this thoroughly before you guys (you, the band, and the production team) go any further....

(Oh, yeah, you ARE that guy that ordered the Quads. Well, the IEM advice I wrote below is way under you, then... but you might need to pass it on...)

First, the production team positively needs a thorough training session on operating sound systems and integrating Avioms and IEMs into your system. I read enough there to realize that the answer you need is way too long and detailed to be done on an internet forum. The production team sounds like volunteers that were handed a system way over their heads. Trust me, I'm not knocking a volunteer production team (and read that again if any volunteer production people get offended - I know plenty of paid production people that could use some serious training, too!). All of you are in for a world of frustration and disappointment if the production team can't get things together better than what I'm reading. You should absolutely be able to adjust your own volume on the Aviom mixer, as well as everyone else's, too (assuming drums and vocals are grouped). It doesn't really matter if you take your bass directly to the DI first, or you use a line-level send from the amp to the DI, or even the XLR output on the bass head as long as the level is clean and not too hot. I prefer the bass directly into the DI first, then into the amp, but that's the easy stuff. (Oh, and taking a line from your amp to the Aviom is an insane idea, unless it's not a true Aviom system, just a "mix plus me" system). And with the right earbuds, there should be no need for a bass amp, although it's fine if you WANT it, but you shouldn't NEED it. And you can get good earbuds for starting around $250-300, less if you aren't too picky.

Everything you've written screams that there are way bigger issues going on there than at what point to pick off the bass to send to the mixing console. I always ask the volunteers what they do for a regular job, then I ask (if it's an accountant, for instance), what would happen if I walked into your office on a Saturday and tried to do the taxes of a multi-million-dollar corporation? While sound reinforcement isn't brain surgery, it's not a walk in the park, especially with digital consoles, lighting, broadcast, video, and live internet streaming. Some training IS necessary to make this work, including basic concepts of gain structure and understanding busing inputs and groups to Avioms. And man, you wouldn't believe the indignation I get when I ask that question. So they are above their knowledge and talents coming into question? It's no wonder sound guys have a bad reputation (even a lot of so-called "pros").

I can go on and on, but I've spent a lot of time training church production volunteers (and I love the guys that volunteer at our church, I helped develop a training course for them) and I could go on and on for hours about this. But this is really your bottom line. Nothing wrong with coming here and asking, of course...

Good luck, let us know how it goes, and don't hesitate to ask anything, even though it may seem like I've thrown water on the idea...

 

[joebar]

Geez....Read this thoroughly before you guys (you, the band, and the production team) go any further....

(Oh, yeah, you ARE that guy that ordered the Quads. Well, the IEM advice I wrote below is way under you, then... but you might need to pass it on...)

First, the production team positively needs a thorough training session on operating sound systems and integrating Avioms and IEMs into your system. I read enough there to realize that the answer you need is way too long and detailed to be done on an internet forum. The production team sounds like volunteers that were handed a system way over their heads. Trust me, I'm not knocking a volunteer production team (and read that again if any volunteer production people get offended - I know plenty of paid production people that could use some serious training, too!). All of you are in for a world of frustration and disappointment if the production team can't get things together better than what I'm reading. You should absolutely be able to adjust your own volume on the Aviom mixer, as well as everyone else's, too (assuming drums and vocals are grouped). It doesn't really matter if you take your bass directly to the DI first, or you use a line-level send from the amp to the DI, or even the XLR output on the bass head as long as the level is clean and not too hot. I prefer the bass directly into the DI first, then into the amp, but that's the easy stuff. (Oh, and taking a line from your amp to the Aviom is an insane idea, unless it's not a true Aviom system, just a "mix plus me" system). And with the right earbuds, there should be no need for a bass amp, although it's fine if you WANT it, but you shouldn't NEED it. And you can get good earbuds for starting around $250-300, less if you aren't too picky.

Everything you've written screams that there are way bigger issues going on there than at what point to pick off the bass to send to the mixing console. I always ask the volunteers what they do for a regular job, then I ask (if it's an accountant, for instance), what would happen if I walked into your office on a Saturday and tried to do the taxes of a multi-million-dollar corporation? While sound reinforcement isn't brain surgery, it's not a walk in the park, especially with digital consoles, lighting, broadcast, video, and live internet streaming. Some training IS necessary to make this work, including basic concepts of gain structure and understanding busing inputs and groups to Avioms. And man, you wouldn't believe the indignation I get when I ask that question. So they are above their knowledge and talents coming into question? It's no wonder sound guys have a bad reputation (even a lot of so-called "pros").

I can go on and on, but I've spent a lot of time training church production volunteers (and I love the guys that volunteer at our church, I helped develop a training course for them) and I could go on and on for hours about this. But this is really your bottom line. Nothing wrong with coming here and asking, of course...

Good luck, let us know how it goes, and don't hesitate to ask anything, even though it may seem like I've thrown water on the idea...

thx for the info geri-

I am taking a wild stab here, but I think the system being used is a mix + me but I still cant seem to figure out the gain structure at the post.

I had a little tour of our PA system a few months ago and I was overwhelmed to say the least. the mixing board-I don't know what it is-but apparently , it is so complex that even guys from L&M don't know how to use it.
it is about 14,000 watts of juice into the mains + subwoofer; there is about 2 miles of cable running to the power amps and wireless systems and whatever else is in those racks backstage...
for some reason, the sub box is in the rafters (it weighs 500 lbs.) I think that is most of the problem with the boominess right there. most churches design their stage with the sub under the stage. there is certainly room for it.

-my first thought is that a good set of IEM's would be a moot point if the soundguys don't know how to mix anything.
-this is a good lesson for all the players who have expensive basses and are tweakers; at the end of the day, all those nuances would be lost in this room.

-the room is really boomy and the bass always sounds terrible.

-I understand there is lot going on-they have a department devoted to recording and for TV/radio broadcasting; they record CD/DVD's every week for purchase. there is people in the sound booth that focus on the overheads. it is becoming more paramount-the need for quality all around.
it takes a lot of volunteers to make it all run smooth. (I think a few people are on the payroll)

 

[TimmyP]

There's no need for two different feeds.

 

[JMan424]

First, the production team positively needs a thorough training session on operating sound systems and integrating Avioms and IEMs into your system. I read enough there to realize that the answer you need is way too long and detailed to be done on an internet forum. [...]

How specific is this to Aviom?

Is there a system you'd recommend as friendlier for use by "who can we get to volunteer" level sound guys?

What I'm really wondering if this is part & parcel for digital setups or if Avioms are particularly involved (even if those complications make them particularly capable for experts).

 

[Geri O]

Not necessarily specific to Aviom. All of the personal systems require a basic knowledge of routing and some networking skills (if you are networking from a digital console to the Aviom or whatever system you are using) to get the channels to the personal mixers. There's a few decisions to be made about what to send singly, or direct out, what to group together (drums, background vocals, etc.) and where to pick the individual signals from (For instance, I see things like kick drum, bass, guitar, etc. coming from the post EQ/pre-fader point, if you have the choice available to make. Some consoles will have only one choice from where to send the direct out from).

All of this is pretty much related to the set-up. Usually, they run pretty much hands-free after that, just needing the players to set their mixes. Things happen, like networking changes rendering the system in-operable until an IT guy figures it out and puts things back where they were. That's happened with us only once (simply renaming a machine shut us down, until we found the modified machine and made the appropriate changes upstream).

I wish I had time to write more, maybe later when I come up for air Sunday after this run I'm about to embark on.