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Double Bass Bille (Italian fingering system?

robobass

robobass

Aug 1, 2005
3,546
1,421
Cologne, Germany
www.basscapos.com
Disclosures
Private Inventor - Bass Capos
#1
I'm cross-posting this also to "Jazz Technique"
My question is: Does anyone anywhere still use the 1-3-4 fingering system? A new student came to me today who had learned this way. He said he got it from a reputable jazz teacher but who was mainly a slab-basser. I told him that this system died out like 50+ years ago, and his former teacher was likely self taught from Bille books. I have never, ever seen this system in use, and personally find it quite inferior to Simandl. Am I wrong? Do some people still play this way?
Robobass
 
#4
I know the Petracchi Method has the fingering notations written in 1-3-4 with a preface saying something along the lines of "if you use your 2nd finger instead of your 3rd, substitute that where applicable." And that's a pretty major method book that I know I've spent quite a lot of time with.
 
#5
It has been widely accepted in Italy, I believe. Bille is an excellent writer but there is a basic problem with it. The ring finger on the left hand (we refer to it as '3') is the weakest of all of the 5 fingers. Women are taught to apply makeup to their eyes using this finger to lessen the chance of accidental injury due to too much pressure. Also, the 2nd finger is the "money" finger - great sound, vibrato, lyrical playing, etc.
To link it to the 3rd - as in the 1-3-4 - really reduces your playing choices. Better to link the 3 to the not-quite-as-weak 4 for mutual strength. 1-2-4 is much more useful and musical. And when you add the open hand tech. - 1-2-3-4 - its easier to add that tech. from the 1-2-4 rather than the 1-3-4.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com :bassist:
 
#6
I have seen in person Hal Robinson (Philly prin.) use the 3rd in place of the 2nd on random as well as at least 2 or 3 of his students. I started using it as well where I could and found it had a different sound. Also, for thumb playing using the 3rd lower in place of the 2dn will help to strengthen that finger. I use it on slower stuff mainly where I can think because I too am Simandl 'embedded'.

I have used the Bille Books in the past ( I have several of them) and subbed the 2nd for the 3rd. After seeing Hal play I went back and tried it as written. I say that until you give it a good try, be gentle with your opinions. Maybe I should try some of my own medicine.. you think?;)
 
#7
I use the 1 3 4 fingering, but I am older than dirt. That's the way I was taught 52 years ago. Our own Marco Panacio is another user of this system, but he learned it in Italy. The 2 finger is used in support of the 3 finger. My instructor actually put a rubber band around my 2nd and 3rd fingers to keep them together. I haven't seen anyone else using this technique in the last 30 years or so, although a lot of the "old timers" (Slam Stewart) used it.
 
#8
TomGale said:
It has been widely accepted in Italy, I believe. Bille is an excellent writer but there is a basic problem with it. The ring finger on the left hand (we refer to it as '3') is the weakest of all of the 5 fingers. Women are taught to apply makeup to their eyes using this finger to lessen the chance of accidental injury due to too much pressure. Also, the 2nd finger is the "money" finger - great sound, vibrato, lyrical playing, etc.
To link it to the 3rd - as in the 1-3-4 - really reduces your playing choices. Better to link the 3 to the not-quite-as-weak 4 for mutual strength. 1-2-4 is much more useful and musical. And when you add the open hand tech. - 1-2-3-4 - its easier to add that tech. from the 1-2-4 rather than the 1-3-4.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com :bassist:
Click to expand...

"Money finger"? Ask some players of the other string instruments if they have a "money finger". Very funny.
 
#9
neilG said:
"Money finger"? Ask some players of the other string instruments if they have a "money finger". Very funny.
Click to expand...

Its a variation of the "money notes" phrase that my buddy Mark Morton is fond of using. Those are notes that are played so beautifully that they cause the public to actually lay down money to hear them. Most 'money notes' on the bass are played with the 2nd finger or, if not practical, the 1st finger. Never with the 4th - it ain't a 'money' finger because it don't play no 'money notes'. Clearer now???
Tom Gale
 
#10
I suspect that Mr. Morton's definition of "money notes" relates less to the finger being used to play them and more to the specific pitch or the fact that it is the climax of a phrase. I for one have worked diligently for years to be able to produce the same sound with whatever finger I happen to be using. I also avoid using the words "never" and "always" when describing how the bass is played, mostly because for every person that uses one system, there are likely just as many that use an altogether different, but equally effective, system.
 
#12
TomGale said:
It has been widely accepted in Italy, I believe. Bille is an excellent writer but there is a basic problem with it. The ring finger on the left hand (we refer to it as '3') is the weakest of all of the 5 fingers. Women are taught to apply makeup to their eyes using this finger to lessen the chance of accidental injury due to too much pressure. Also, the 2nd finger is the "money" finger - great sound, vibrato, lyrical playing, etc.
To link it to the 3rd - as in the 1-3-4 - really reduces your playing choices. Better to link the 3 to the not-quite-as-weak 4 for mutual strength. 1-2-4 is much more useful and musical. And when you add the open hand tech. - 1-2-3-4 - its easier to add that tech. from the 1-2-4 rather than the 1-3-4.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com :bassist:
Click to expand...

the second finger is for sure my Money finger, my bass teacher has me play the second section of the Koussevitzky concerto first movement (the passage after the two cadenzas) almost exclusively with the second finger, because it really does produce better tone and vibrato.
 
#14
As pointed out by Ken Smith earlier in this thread, Hal Robinson, one of the leading bass players in the country, does not subscribe to the avoidance of the use of 3rd or 4th finger for expressive play. I don't know of any other major teachers who produce working professional bass players who limit their students in this way either (i.e. Ed Barker, Larry Hurst, Paul Ellison etc...). Mr. Gale are you really suggesting that these top players and educators are wrong? Music isn't about which digit is used, but rather how they are used to convey the message of the music. Perhaps what works for you or Dr. Morton isn't the only viable answer, huh? Or do you have a more definitive, quantifiable reasoning, other than your "I'm right and your wrong" attitude as to why you are so unquestionably correct in your thinking?
 
#15
I like the exercises a lot. I played out of book 1 tonight. Some really simple, nice things.
I laid off the bass for about a week, due a bad gig that left me a little dark and a heat wave, the Billie was nice to ease back into practice.

As I said in the Jazz thread I spent about a week doing these exercises 134 and I found it neither a primary fingering system nor a waste of time.
The intonation is a bit more stable but as Tom and others say, you lose facility.
BTW, Tom Gale pushes the use of all four fingers, I am guessing he is meaning to favor the 2nd finger when possible for expressive plaing, which makes sense due to it's strength, not to limit yourself to it.
 
#16
A post on the "jazz technique" side links to a great Youtube video showing that 1-3-4 is alive and well in Italy. I better call my student and tell him I'm an idiot. Still, I think 1-2-4 makes more sense from a physical/anatomical standpoint. This student in particular has developed a really horrible left hand form on his slab bass, and it transfers to upright when he plays using 1-3-4. When I get him playing scales on upright using 1-2-4, most of the problems self correct. Perhaps it's something like bow grips. German grip is hands down easier for a beginner, but not necessarily better at the advanced level. Now, does anyone really use 1-2-3-4 in the lowest positions?
Robobass
 
#18
I originally learned to play the bass using Bille's first book (I've never even seen the inside of a Simandl book) on the advise of my teacher at the time. He had me use the 1-2-4 fingering everywhere. It might be interesting to go back through some of the exercises and see what happens if I used my 3rd finger.
 
#19
And money notes are not played on the 4th finger.[/QUOTE]

I'm trying to attach a talk I did at an ISB convention showing thye advantage of 1,2 over 2,4 at the end of certain phrases - ending on a 'money' note. It used to be on Silas's site but I can't find the site anymore. I hope it works but given my computer skills.......
Tom (untech) Gale
 

Attachments

#20
I don't know of anyone in my area that uses that fingering, but I'm studying Bille right now and I always substitute 2 for 3 and it works just fine. I've never tried using 1-3-4 either, but I was an electric player before I started double, so I had to get used to not using my 3rd finger in the first place.
 

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