I have always played passages with the bow to a tuner, then pizz also to the tuner. A month ago, my open strings while played pizz were in tune, but the tuner displayed (and my ear) that the pitch when bowed was flat. The difference is worst on the A and E strings mostly in Half and First position. Could this be a set-up issue? I've been experimenting with string height. Has anyone experienced this or know of a remedy?
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Double Bass Bow/Pizz Intonation differences
- Thread starter mrbojangles82
- Start date
Don't take this the wrong way but if you're out of tune with a bow you're prolly out pizz too. If it is a recent occurrence I'd bet money that your ear is getting better, that's good. Use it to tune up.
A great exercise is playing your scales in diatonic thirds. Ex. C Major: Major third, minor third, minor third, Major third, Major third, minor third, minor third then back to tonic. You can couple this with patterns form Zimmerman's bowing book. I like to pick a pattern and starting downbow play it twice draw the bow in time out to the tip do the same cycle, draw it back in time to the frog, wash, rinse repeat on the next third. It'll get your bow and ear going quick. Of course this all the better done against a drone.
YMMV maybe your bow really does put you out of tune. But arco is usually the litmus test for whether you are in tune or not. It says in your profile you are available for instruction. I'm not trying to be an @$$ but I would maybe figure this out before teaching someone else a not so great habit. Just my opinion. Again no disrespect as I am sure you are a fine player. Cheers.
A great exercise is playing your scales in diatonic thirds. Ex. C Major: Major third, minor third, minor third, Major third, Major third, minor third, minor third then back to tonic. You can couple this with patterns form Zimmerman's bowing book. I like to pick a pattern and starting downbow play it twice draw the bow in time out to the tip do the same cycle, draw it back in time to the frog, wash, rinse repeat on the next third. It'll get your bow and ear going quick. Of course this all the better done against a drone.
YMMV maybe your bow really does put you out of tune. But arco is usually the litmus test for whether you are in tune or not. It says in your profile you are available for instruction. I'm not trying to be an @$$ but I would maybe figure this out before teaching someone else a not so great habit. Just my opinion. Again no disrespect as I am sure you are a fine player. Cheers.
You, know, I've been playing the bass for, erm, a long time, and never considered this or heard the question. So I went into the practice room and tried to duplicate your results. No problem, you're not crazy.
While I can't say that one is always sharp and the other flat, there is a difference most of the time. Without any real scientific knowledge, I can only surmise that bowing and plucking each distort the string in a different way, affecting intonation. I don't know that setup is going to make any difference, you need to let your ears be your guide and adjust accordingly. I've always known that getting pizz notes in tune with a section in an orchestra was more of a challenge than arco but never wondered why. I thought it was a problem of matching timbres, and I still think that's part of it.I'd like to hear someone chime in with some real scientific explanation. No matter what, you still have to adjust. HTH
Neil
Ahhh thank you. It was driving me kind of nuts. I suppose there's no substitute for a drone note and your ears.
When there's energy in the string from vibration, it adds a little bit of extra tension, so the string goes sharp. On top of that, the bow pressure also adds a bit of tension.
So, pizz is flatter than arco by a little bit, and as the sound decays, pizz notes start sharp and go flatter. What your tuner will read on a pizz note depends on how quick responding the tuner is; mine I can watch the note come down in pitch.
Obviously this also means your pitch depends on how loud you play; louder means sharper. So you also need to compensate for that effect.
So, pizz is flatter than arco by a little bit, and as the sound decays, pizz notes start sharp and go flatter. What your tuner will read on a pizz note depends on how quick responding the tuner is; mine I can watch the note come down in pitch.
Obviously this also means your pitch depends on how loud you play; louder means sharper. So you also need to compensate for that effect.
This is why I (a pizz only player) never use tuners...I prefer tuning to the chordal instrument. Whenever I tune to a tuner, I sound flat. The reason ( I think) is that (as mentioned) pizz notes start ut sharp and then go flatter until they even out. If you play with a great deal of force on the attack (i.e. - pull the string far so that the initial vibration is wide), it heightens the shortening of the string and the perception of sharpness. However, I believe that the part of the note that most people hear as the "body" of the note is the slightly flatter part right after the attack and the decay.
Or maybe I'm just rationalizing because I prefer being sharp to being flat...
Or maybe I'm just rationalizing because I prefer being sharp to being flat...
Success! (Sort of)
The old bow I was using had no tip (and I lost it) and needed a rehairing, and was cheap. So I bought a new bow (graphite).
Still had the problem! (mucho disappointed, but only briefly as we learn from mistakes and trial and error is the best ((indeed the only real)) way.)
The culprits
1. Rosin that had caked onto the strings (obvious right?) I'd cleaned it with sandpaper and water but it took a choreboy to do the trick.
2. My rosin had gone hard as a rock, and wasn't transferring the the string. I nuked it for 15 seconds (thanks to somebody else's post) and the pitches seem to be matching up now (fingers crossed).
Phew (keep in mind my bowed notes were almost a half step flat (Yikes!!!!))
Hope you like my nested parentheses all you philosophers out there. (Go Rutgers!)
The old bow I was using had no tip (and I lost it) and needed a rehairing, and was cheap. So I bought a new bow (graphite).
Still had the problem! (mucho disappointed, but only briefly as we learn from mistakes and trial and error is the best ((indeed the only real)) way.)
The culprits
1. Rosin that had caked onto the strings (obvious right?) I'd cleaned it with sandpaper and water but it took a choreboy to do the trick.
2. My rosin had gone hard as a rock, and wasn't transferring the the string. I nuked it for 15 seconds (thanks to somebody else's post) and the pitches seem to be matching up now (fingers crossed).
Phew (keep in mind my bowed notes were almost a half step flat (Yikes!!!!))
Hope you like my nested parentheses all you philosophers out there. (Go Rutgers!)
Okay, are you seriously blaming your rosin for your intonation problems? (
)Notice the smiley in parentheses.
Yes, there is something to be said for cleanliness!
By the way, cleanliness is not next to Godliness.
Goggles is next to Godliness.
Cleanliness is next to claustraphobia, and cleavage.
You can look it up in Webster's.
You can say that again!
Also I was using Spirocores (Not good for Arco!) I will be switching to Superflexibles, hopefully that will eradicate this annoyance.
Also I was using Spirocores (Not good for Arco!) I will be switching to Superflexibles, hopefully that will eradicate this annoyance.
Okay, are you seriously blaming your rosin for your intonation problems? (
Notice the smiley in parentheses.
It wasn't just the rosin that was wrecking my sound! But when my cat left the room, my quarter notes were 13% more precise. I'm meeting a dander expert on Wednesday, and will report back with my findings!
Now, THAT's no joke. I have a new student who came in with a bass set up with some sort of jazz pizzicato string, and I can't believe how difficult it is to make a decent sound with the bow.
It's not just the tension in the string that is changing. For Arco: when the bow is drawn the equilibrium position that the string is vibrating through is no longer a straight line from the nut to the bridge, due to the pressure from the bow. The deformation of the equilibrium position causes the string to stretch, resulting in higher tension (hooke's law, e.g.) and an increase in vibrating string length. I think the mass of the vibrating string (between nut and bridge) actually increases a bit too, because the tension along the entire string from tuning peg to tailpiece would increase, so the entire string would stretch, but the only location where additional length would be present is in the segment from the nut to the bridge. i.e. some of the string slides over the nut and bridge as the whole string stretches. In principle the tailpiece wire could stretch too, but I suspect that on most basses the tailpiece wire is not as stretchy as the string and there are two wires (a loop actually) that would be picking up the extra tension.
So, IMO, there are three factors: increased string length (which will lower the pitch), increased mass (which will lower the pitch), and increased tension (which would raise the pitch) as the bow pressure is applied and the bow is drawn.
Jim
So, IMO, there are three factors: increased string length (which will lower the pitch), increased mass (which will lower the pitch), and increased tension (which would raise the pitch) as the bow pressure is applied and the bow is drawn.
Jim
I was about to post a message stating that this was all nitpicking, but I just played a concert where the audience all brought tuners to the hall, and tsk-tsk'ed after every note was out of tune by 1 Hz or more! You could hardly hear the music for all the tsk-tsk'ing!
It's amazing how complicated it really is to play in tune, and that when you do, you are instantaneously and unconsciously adapting to all those factors that have been mentioned.
The tailpiece does appear to be a factor. On my (circa 1980) Chinese plywood bass (which oddly, has a decent sound), I think that the tailpiece is not tight enough or well connected or was somehow messed up. The pressure from the bow, even very slight pressure is causing the tailpiece to move. I tested this by lightly plucking one string pizzicato and resting the bow on another string (not pressing), and sure enough the pitch goes flat. I'm bringing it to a luthier/repair guy next week. Does anybody else experience this?
I was always under the impression that while tuning with a bow, you get the constant note if you keep constant pressure, so it's better to tune that way if you're using a tuner. When playing pizz, the pitch seems like it would be sharp the moment you pluck it, go in tune, then go flat as it fades.
Ok, something has to be really seriously messed up for the pitch difference to be a semitone… I measured it on my bass just now and it was only 13 cents. Maybe tailpiece, maybe soundpost, but something is not right (and seriously so… intonation changes mean something structural is shifting).
While it is true that the effective length and mass may change, I'm sure that's a very much smaller effect than the tension increase. You can't see the strings move over either the nut or the bridge, and they'd have to move by a reasonable fraction of a millimetre to have any appreciable effect.
While it is true that the effective length and mass may change, I'm sure that's a very much smaller effect than the tension increase. You can't see the strings move over either the nut or the bridge, and they'd have to move by a reasonable fraction of a millimetre to have any appreciable effect.
