Double Bass Bowhold: conflicting info

[Snakewood]

the issue with gripping the bow by the metal is that your wrist remains static, you can't pronate your hand as much, this will lead to poor bow control and lack of phrasing especially in bel canto like passages. the purpose of the thumb in the frog groove is so your wrist can be free. I personally use Franco Petrachi's bow hold, because my teacher was a student of his and we all come from the Italian School. I hold the bow with my thumb a bit further back, so it's not in the "groove" but at the crevice (u shaped area) of the ebony frog. I notice this gives you more power, and you can relax your hand more, and let the "natural" weight of your arm ease into the bow hold, instead of tensing up.

 

[newinthething]

I don't know what Stuart Sankey taught Edgar Meyer, but if you look at his edition of the Simandl book you will find a number of suggestions on his part that indicate to me he was an open-minded teacher who wasn't above using "tricks" to make it through technical difficulties...and I woudn't doubt that if Sankey did have an opinion about how the bow should have been held that Meyer didn't at least try it (if not work furiously for a period of time to do it as Sankey suggested).

My own teacher spoke highly of Stuart Sankey to me during one brief moment a couple of years ago, but I didn't know who Sankey was at the time.

Ok, the fact is that Edgar Meyer hold the bow as he does, so is no relevant to know who taught him to do this way; I think my point remains being a good point.

What I need to hear, or read (and probably Davidoc either) is not historical data, but a very good reason to the advice against the technique that Edgar Meyer use in his live performances.

Flexibility to match method and student condition, convenience and possibilities is the more valuable feature of a good teacher. His basic rule should be "If you can play what you should play and it sounds good enough, you can do it in the way you want, unless I had a good reason to advice against it".

So, Davidoc, if your teacher doesn't provide the reason that you need to hear, maybe you should ask for it to another one.

 

[newinthething]

the issue with gripping the bow by the metal is that your wrist remains static, you can't pronate your hand as much, this will lead to poor bow control and lack of phrasing especially in bel canto like passages. the purpose of the thumb in the frog groove is so your wrist can be free. I personally use Franco Petrachi's bow hold, because my teacher was a student of his and we all come from the Italian School. I hold the bow with my thumb a bit further back, so it's not in the "groove" but at the crevice (u shaped area) of the ebony frog. I notice this gives you more power, and you can relax your hand more, and let the "natural" weight of your arm ease into the bow hold, instead of tensing up.

I understand what you say, but the point is that Edgar Meyer don't use his wrist at all in any of his holdbow approches, as you could see on the DVD "Appalachian Journey". All his movement come from shoulder and elbow, and it works beautifully from him. What more could I say?

 

[reedo35]

I use a french bow. I had been instructed by my teacher to hold the bow with my thumb below the metal; on the very bottom of the bow. This seems very comfortable and natural.
Then I go to an audition for college, and the bass instructor there said something to the effect of "get a new teacher", and that you must hold the bow between the two parts that split.
Now, I like my teacher, and I like the bow hold he told me to use better.
What's your opinion on this issue? Is it an issue of preference?

This is a bow hold that we used to use for non-bass players in string methods class when I was in college. The benefit is that it doesn't hurt your hand at all, and you can usually get a powerful sound right away. The drawback is that if you ever want to play anything faster than a quarter note, or do any of the more intricate bowing techniques, forget it.
I also agree with Robin on the rabbath CD. It really does show how relaxed your hold can be, and you can actually visualize all the mechanics of good bowing technique.

 

[kraid]

Let us not forget that Sankey was a German player. What Meyer learned from him about the French bow was probably minimal.

When I saw the Chamber Society of Lincoln Center do the complete Brandenburg Concertos this winter, Meyer used the thumb grip hold for most of the performance. What's interesting is that when I saw the same program a year before, I don't remember his bow looking like that at all. Perhaps he was tired that night

 

[Snakewood]

I understand what you say, but the point is that Edgar Meyer don't use his wrist at all in any of his holdbow approches, as you could see on the DVD "Appalachian Journey". All his movement come from shoulder and elbow, and it works beautifully from him. What more could I say?

Well perhaps that's why Meyer has the sound he does? I mean he is technically flawless, but I wouldn't exactly consider his playing to be beautiful. Wrist is very important in getting a good tone. Not TOO much, just a slight pronation.

 

[ClassicalBass]

Actually, having personally seen him play (sitting front row, no less in a very small audditorium), I can confirm that his bow technique uses a lot of wrist movement. Haven't you guys seen the Music for Two DVD? If you recall his performance of the 4th Movement of the Eccles Sonata, he plays the entire movement (or at least half, since that is all the DVD shows) with almost no arm or shoulder motion; it is entirely wrist. Watch closely. It's truly amazing; I doubt any bassist could play quite like that, even at a much slower tempo. As for any complaints about his sound, I disagree completely. I actually prefer his soft elegance to, say, Gary Karr's broad, powerful stroke. That is, of course, entirely opinion.

 

[anonymous0726]

I'll take seriously pontification on Edgar's weaknesses from the first one that can play his thing -- and then show me how it's done correctly....

 

[jallenbass]

I'll take seriously pontification on Edgar's weaknesses from the first one that can play his thing -- and then show me how it's done correctly....

Ray - Thanks for always coming up with the perfect response to nonsense.

 

[Johnny L]

I, personally, see a lot of value in discussions on bowhold technique. I'm just lost on why anyone would cite Edgar Meyer for specific techniques. From my POV and what I've heard him say in person, Edgar always tells people that it's always secondary to making music. If you wanted to hold the bow with your teeth but you get great music out, then that would probably be fine with Edgar.

But as ClassicalBass offers, the notion that Edgar Meyer keeps his wrist locked while bowing is crazy. Not with just the really fast stuff...all you have to do is see him play long tones on the Apple/waltz DVD and you see his wrist help the bow stay perpendicular to the strings.

Rabbath is exaggerating his wrist-flexing simply to make an important point about weight and relaxation and the advantages his standing position offers. When Rabbath is playing music, he's probably as oblivious to what he is actually doing as Edgar is...

 

[Snakewood]

Ray - Thanks for always coming up with the perfect response to nonsense.

nonsense? I don't think so. You don't have to be of the same calibur of the person you're talking about in order to conjure up an opinion of him. I'm 19, can I play as well as Meyer? Obviously not, am I allowed to say as an opinion that his style is not bel canto and I personally don't like his tone? Yes

Jeez.

 

[jallenbass]

Am I allowed to say as an opinion that your opinion is nonsense? Yes

gee willikers.

 

[anonymous0726]

Now, boys.

 

[Anonymous75966]

regardless of what young snake might think of edgar meyer and what we all might think about that, i think he's pretty much on the money about bow holds. best instruction i've got about bowing is that you need a flexible wrist to control articulation and tone - that's french or german both. you can play with a flexible wrist and still draw most of the power from the larger back and shoulder muscles, that's how you don't get tired or injured. with the thumb under the frog you have more power and a more 'direct' connection but you just don't have the flexibility.

but it's a good point that when you're playing solo material or non-'standard' material you can change up the rules anyway that's required. i play a lot of contemporary repertoire and i've used some wacky grips to get through really loud or aggressive bass parts - thumb under the frog, bow in the clenched fist, flip the bow over and play it german style, whatever.

so edgar can do whatever he needs to do, sure, and so can you. but!!! davidoc, y'all should learn the 'proper' grip - you're not using the full potential of the bow if you don't.

 

[kurt muroki]

now that this topic is pretty much dead, I'll add my 2 cents... I think that edgar basically is conservative in the use of his motion. He knows which combination of joints he needs to use for every particular stroke and uses ONLY the motion he needs to achieve what he is going for. He has worked it all out technically for his style of playing. Sankey was big on making things as simple as possible technically.

 

[Skywalker22]

In regards to Meyer's bowing technique and everything... Remember that he need not project very far. He plays to a mic that is set up close to his bass. This allows him a greater amount of precision in left hand technique and his bow arm. Take away the mic and put him in a situation where he has to project over an orchestra (in the Bottesini concerto for example) and his technique would have to change. He's great at what he does but I wouldn't suggest anyone trying to do things the way he does. Locking the wrist causes unneccessary problems. I would suggest that whoever you are, you get various perspectives on the bow arm and then form your decision through your own personal experimentation. Not just because Edgar Meyer does it.

 

[BMatthews]

As a beginning and even intermediate student, stick with tradition. There is a reason for common techniques--they work.
I think--and I say this as a learning player myself--that experimentation with technique, especially as extreme as the grips mentioned, should be reserved for those that are well-settled in a good traditional bow hold.
Edgar Meyer is a legendary player, and when I saw him play with the RPO last year I couldn't help but be blown away...but to get to that level [for most of us] traditional methods are the best way to go.

 

[newinthething]

But as ClassicalBass offers, the notion that Edgar Meyer keeps his wrist locked while bowing is crazy. Not with just the really fast stuff...all you have to do is see him play long tones on the Apple/waltz DVD and you see his wrist help the bow stay perpendicular to the strings.

There is a little misunderstunding here, I guess.
I never said Edgar Meyer keeps his wrist locked while performing. His wrist is always flexible and all its joints work permanently. But it's a fact that no movement is originated there; all they come exclusively from shoulder and elbow. The wrist remains flexible just to allow these movement reach the bow properly, and its movement is really minimal.

Anybody can see him playing that way on "Caprice for three" (in "Appalachian Journey" DVD). The piece is a very fast tempo one; the composer is Mark O'Connor, and it's originally conceived for violin, so it presents many dificulties to be permormed on the Bass, but Meyer does it perfectly with these minimal movements in his wrist.