Double Bass Bridge question, HELP!!!

[jkallen83]

ok, first off, im new. hey everyone.

second, im a lead guitar player but used to be full time bass player.

finally got me an upright bass, ALWAYS wanted one. it's an Engelhardt. LOVE IT.

its brand new, actually DIRECT from the factory, friend and upright bass player went out to the factory to see it before it was bought.

so when it arrived, we set it up, he said it would take some time to set in and would need reset, and being used to luthiering my own instruments, i knew this.

i adjusted my action, probably did it wrong but it worked, basically cut my grooves in the bridge until i liked the action.

now here's the question i need help with. i cut the grooves until they string sits well beyond the top of the bridge and was told they are suppose to basically sit on top of the bridge in just a small groove about half the string diameter.

what is the purpose of the strings being in a small "notch" rather than sitting deep in a groove like mine are now? and do i need to grind off the excess bridge till the grooves are just "notches"???

any advice would be GREATLY appreciated.

 

[chris1125]

From my experience deep grove bridges are not particularly responsive and don't project as well as a good bridge would.

 

[jkallen83]

chris1125,
thanks for the response. i can understand that. that's enough reason to sand down the bridge until the grooves become "notches". i just wanted to be sure what the reasoning was for it before i did anything because i hate to mess with something that is working. it plays and sounds great, but can always use more projection and response.

thanks, just wanted to know.

 

[chris1125]

Personally, I wouldn't touch the bridge unless you have first hand experience with double bass setup. A good btw one will cost you a little over $300 so don't mess it up. :/

 

[jkallen83]

not with double bass so much, but i am the guy that everyone comes to when they need instrument repair, ive even built guitars. i know this is different, but thats why im here, to learn its differences. even though it is different, it is also similar.

for me, i like knowing a reasoning behind something before i do it. im not worried about messing it up, just was wondering why do it at all, u explained that so it makes sense. good enough for me.

by the way, eventhough i mainly play lead guitar now. i cant get enough playing this bass. the studio i do alot of work in has asked me to bring this thing over and do some recording with it on some rockabilly stuff. cant wait to hear it recorded.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I wouldn't say lead guitar and Double Bass are similar in any way really..?
Different "families" of instruments.

 

[Damon Rondeau]

i adjusted my action, probably did it wrong but it worked, basically cut my grooves in the bridge until i liked the action.

now here's the question i need help with. i cut the grooves until they string sits well beyond the top of the bridge and was told they are suppose to basically sit on top of the bridge in just a small groove about half the string diameter.

what is the purpose of the strings being in a small "notch" rather than sitting deep in a groove like mine are now? and do i need to grind off the excess bridge till the grooves are just "notches"???

You are going to get a fair number of folks here advising you not to mess with this stuff. If you're an experienced DIY'er, you probably know about those issues.

Some folks will say there will be sonic issues about notches that are too deep. I wouldn't venture an opinion on that myself, other than to say you want to encourage and preserve as much vibration as you can get out of these big acoustic instruments.

I would mention the straightforward mechanics of it, though: you want the strings to stay put (i.e., not slide off the bridge), but you don't want them hindered in any way as they "slide" over the bridge whilst in the notches. If they stick, that can cause the bridge to move in ways you don't want it to move. It would seem to me that problem is more likely to come up with notches that are too deep. Most people will dry-lubricate the notches with graphite or -- more often -- rubbing them with some very soft pencil lead.

 

[jkallen83]

as far as "messing" with stuff, im not worried, not only do i do everything myself, there are also certifications that ive been through. some i qualify for but just cant get because some certifications require working in a retail store that is a dealer for a certain brand to get the "legal" certification for it. i got into guitar repair many years ago when i realized that most music stores dont have a clue what they are doing. i wouldnt let them restring any of my instruments much less work on something. so i learned on my own to begin with, working all the way up to doing work for others. now EVERYONE calls me when they have a problem/modification.

didnt mean to get into all of that, but everyone wants to tell me about needing an experienced person to work on things, i HAVE experience and the proper training and can do just about anything you want with an instrument.

but upright bass is not something that everyone has one of. so even though i look at it and its similar in the aspect of what most stringed instruments are and how they are set, it also has its differences. kinda like im asking about the bridge.

most people get something, play it, say it sounds and plays good, but since i do repairs and setups on instruments not only for me but for others, i dont want to say yeah it plays and sounds good, i wanna know WHY it plays and sounds good, and im not talking about because its a good instrument and its action is right, im talking what about the instrument is "talking".

so today i will file down the bridge so i have "notches" instead of grooves. yall have answered my question. i'll post the results and let yall know if i noticed any difference.

 

[Damon Rondeau]

A good btw one will cost you a little over $300 so don't mess it up. :/

Bridges cost a lot less than that. The $300 figure would cover the cost of the bridge plus the cost of setting it up and installing it.

 

[jkallen83]

ok yall, i just filed down the bass bridge to get rid of my "grooves" and now i have nice "notches"

the result: well, it "seems" to me to be louder and more boomy. i can definately tell a difference. it is now what i would think a good upright bass should sound like. it was great before, but now it adds that bit of the vintage "thomp" to it.

dont know what yall play but this Engelhardt is definately a great bass.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

i HAVE experience and the proper training and can do just about anything you want with an instrument.

sounds like you'd benefit from Chuck Traeger's book.

 

[jkallen83]

didnt mean to come off as a jerk and im not one to brag. i asked a simple question of the purpose of notches vs grooves in the bridge. chris1125 made a quick simple answer and thats what i needed. everyone else instead of answering the question starts in on knowledge and skills of being competent enough to do the job. it was a 5 minute job to work the bridge and about 10 minutes total that the bridge was off the bass. it was a simple task.

im am always glad and willing to give advice, but im not one to brag and tell my qualifications and experience, until its in question or in doubt.

10 minutes with the bridge off and problem solved. simple. i just wanted to know the reasoning behind it before i did it.

so not trying to be a jerk guys, just asking questions, its how i improve my knowledge and skills. sorry if i offended anyone and thanks to those who just give advice on the original question.

 

[pnchad]

don't be hesitant to work on it - it's how you learn - worst case would be getting a new bridge blank ($30 for fixed)

+1 on the Traeger book - its the bible for DB setup

I don't think you mentioned whether its a fixed bridge or adjustable??? When you can afford it I recommend an adjustable (wheeled) bridge - serious players carry multiple bridges for weather changes (i.e. summer bridge & winter bridge)

the 'string break' angle over the bridge is important - too little angle and it chokes - too much break and it can damage the table and/or cause extreme action heights

generally the string should sit about half way exposed or protruding from the face of the bridge edge

you'll also need to get a good bridge placement and probably reset the sound post - this requires some specialized tools, mirror, tweezers, sound-post setter - really hard to do right without

good luck!

 

[jkallen83]

pnchad, this is a fixed bridge. its the one that came with the bass from Engelhardt. i would prefer an adjustable bridge, just aint got one yet.

the bridge placement was marked from factory and after checking, is right but i still measure to be sure. the sound post we already set where it should be although i will eventually get a sound post tool because i know at some point that thing will fall out on me if i don't have one.

but yeah, i do want an adjustable bridge. the bass is still new so its still "moving". i hate new instruments for this reason. takes time for them to "set". overall im VERY happy with this bass. its sooo much fun to play. my wife likes it too because she says its not loud lol. she loves bluegrass type music and acoustic instruments in general. nothin worse than turning on an amp with electric guitar to practice while she is watching one of her shows. i can play this bass in another room with carpet and she says she can hear it plain as its loud, but its not a "interfering loudness" that interupts her tv shows lol.

 

[Damon Rondeau]

I mentioned the DIY angle only because it's impossible to come along to this place and ask that kind of question without getting a bunch of folks advising you not to try doing the work. A person should expect a fair amount of that feedback around here. It's good advice if given to a certain kind of person -- i.e., one who is naive about working with tools and making stuff and repairing stuff and all that. We do get folks who fall into that category.

But we also get folks who aren't in that category. I was certainly one of them when I first came here 10 years ago. I'm sure you are too, OP. I mentioned the issue to you not to turn you off, but to try and stave off any more comments along the lines of "don't even bother to try it yourself." I'm a dedicated DIY-er with decades of woodworking experience. The first bass bridge I did worked fine but was uglier than sin. Every one I've done since -- about a half dozen, I guess -- has gotten better and better. Setting them up is not exactly simple, but if you're good with wood and tools it's not brain surgery either. As pnchad points out, it's how we learn and at worst you're out the cost of a bridge.

So: best of luck to you, OP, and please don't hesitate to come here with more questions and info and experiences. I wouldn't want DIY-ers to feel unwelcome here.

Oh yeah: the Traeger book is great but you may not have the bread or want to spend it. Used to be that Bob Gollihur ran a great site with links to anything double bass on the 'net. If you look, you can find all kinds of info on how to set up a bass bridge.

 

[pnchad]

You'll be fine although I will say that, if you're taking string tension off tge bass & the soundpost is staying upright it's too tight a fit.

That's the whole idea - soundpost is held in place by downward pressure from the bridge

Otherwise the top is really too rigid to get a good sound from the instrument

 

[jkallen83]

thanks yall. im glad to be here. im very good with working on instruments. the thing i'll be asking about most will be learning the nature of the upright bass. sure i can play it, but thats not enough, i want to understand it and how everything about it comes together to make it work and sound great.

by the way, the bass player who helped me get this thing set the first time i told him to select the strings he used, so i have Innovation Rockabilly strings on it. dunno if thats good or bad, hadnt experimented with anything else yet. but so far they are definately not bad. i like them.

thanks again yall.

 

[bssist]

i want to understand it and how everything about it comes together to make it work and sound great.

i have Innovation Rockabilly strings on it. dunno if thats good or bad, hadnt experimented with anything else yet. but so far they are definately not bad. i like them.

thanks again yall.

You'll definitely want BOTH of Chuck Traeger's books. They will answer alot or your questions.

From what I have read it is not advisable to buy an adjustable bridge. Get your bridge properly fitted to the top and then add adjusters yourself.

I've played Helicore Pizz, Spiro weich, Spiro mittel, Superflexible. Each had positive and not so positive attributes. One bass liked the mittels better and the next bass likes the weichs better. You'll just have to experiment to decide what changes to your instrument along with which strings give you the feel and sound you like.

Definitely you should work on your instrument yourself. Some people have some attitudes and beliefs about what YOU should and should not do but it is your instrument and your education. I prefer to get educated input and apply it to develop an experienced knowledge base so that I can make tweaks and adjustments as I go. Some guys don't even want to know how it works, they just want someone to do it for them.

It has been my experience that gaining knowledge from working on my own instruments not only allows me to tweak the way it plays and sounds but allows me to gain a greater understanding of HOW it does what it does so that I can alter my approach to the instrument to alter the sounds it produces.

Good luck with it !!

 

[AMJBASS]

I wouldn't have a problem buying a bridge with adjusters already installed. I know that Bob Gollihur sells one and I may in fact pick one up myself. I've cut a few bridges and like Damon, each one has been better than the last. Now I feel quite comfortable doing my own fitting. I would also recommend both of those books if you get the chance to buy them.

 

[iiipopes]

Did you recontour the face of the bridge so it is the proper thickness at the notches as well as the depth of the notches (roughly 1/2 string diameter)? If the bridge is too thick at the string notches, that can damp response, and if it is too thin, it will cause structural issues. And did you take a pencil and coat the notches with graphite so the strings will seat well and not bind?

+1 on the Traeger book, as well as reading as much on setup on this forum as you can comfortably digest at a sitting.