Double Bass Bridge shape vs. neck shape and string height issue

[BigBottom49]

Hi, newbie here.
I've recently acquired a '78 Engelhardt EC1 3/4 upright bass and I've got a question about two issues I've noticed with the bridge.

Issue 1: String height is very high on the A and D strings. At the end of the fingerboard to bottom of string I measure 11, 13, 13, 10 G to E. The fingerboard doesn't have much of an arch to it but the bridge certainly does. I've tried to capture that here:

The bridge has "London" imprinted on it, which I'm guessing is not the original bridge. My guess is that perhaps the PO set it up to play with a bow and swapped the bridge out to accomplish that? I want to do only pizzicato playing.

Issue 2: The bridge is set so that the front edge of the bridge feet are along the line that runs through the two inner F-hole notches. It sits flat and I can't get a piece of paper under any edges. It should be set so that line goes through the center of the feet. As a result the string length is 42 3/8" rather than 42".

To correct both issues I plan to move the bridge forward so it is flat and string length is ~42" and I plan to cut/file down the bridge to make the string height more reasonable. I'll probably start with 7, 8, 9, 10 mm from G to E and go lower if needed. I'll be careful to keep tension on the body so the post doesn't fall over.

I've done a fair amount of guitar luthier work but this is my first DB so I thought I'd check with y'all before I start hacking away at it. Yes, I know it would be better to take it to a proper luthier, but this is not a family heirloom bass and I'm willing to take the risk. If you can see any obvious errors in my plan I'd be obliged if you could let me know.

 

[SAlcott]

The main error in your plan is that you're guessing. Guitar experience has zero application to the double bass.

1. If you move the bridge, the soundpost also has to move.
2. If you lower the arch after deepening the slots, the thickness will possibly need to be adjusted as well.
3. The fit of the feet to the top will need to be checked after moving the bridge.

It may not be a fancy bass, but a proper setup by a bass luthier will make it play like one.

It will be cheaper to have a pro fix your bridge than to spring for a new one after messing up the one on the bass now. I found this out the hard way on my first double bass many years ago.

 

[BigBottom49]

I should probably note that the rest of the bass is in very good shape. The neck joint is solid, the nut is good, and there are no structural issues. The neck is in good shape with an amount of relief that I like. I've put wood shims under the strings and played it hard to determine that the starting string heights I suggested shouldn't cause buzzing. It sounds good and is basically good to go except for the weird discrepancy in the neck vs. bridge radius.

I was thinking that I could just cut one notch at a time (I've got rounded graduated nut files) and leave the bridge on the bass to keep tension on the sound post, but realistically I'd have to take the whole bridge off to cut and sand it down properly. Once I cut the notches down that far I'm going to need to sand the front of the bridge to get the thickness correct at the top.

 

[BigBottom49]

1. If you move the bridge, the soundpost also has to move.
2. If you lower the arch after deepening the slots, the thickness will possibly need to be adjusted as well.
3. The feet look a little thick, and the fit to the top will need to be checked after moving the bridge.

1. I looked inside with a light and mirror and there are some pencil marks around the post on top and bottom and it's centered in these marks. Most likely the post is in the 'original' position and the bridge is in the wrong place, but your point is well taken.
2. Yes, I'll sand the thickness accordingly.
3. I'll check the fit of the feet to make sure they match the top exactly and adjust accordingly.

I am aware that this is a complex beast and an experienced luthier will do a much better job. If I take it to a luthier I'll have an adjustable bridge installed and have it properly set up. In the mean time I can still give it a go and as long as I'm careful I won't do any damage that can't be undone with a proper setup.

 

[BigBottom49]

Follow up on the sound post placement. Right now there is only about 1/8" or less between the back of the bridge and the front edge of the sound post. If the bridge was moved forward so that the center of the feet were on the line between the inner F-hole notches then there would be about a sound-post's width between the back of the bridge and the front of the sound post. I think that suggests that it's the bridge in the wrong position, not the sound post.

 

[nogbert]

while this does ostensibly sound like it is within your abilities it likely wouldnt break the bank to have a luthier adjust the bridge radius for you. I think lots of the labor cost of a setup goes into re-dressing the finger board, but you say the there are no issues there. i'd at least call a luthier and get a quote to see if its worth your time (and possible frustration).

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

He doesn’t know if there are issues with the fingerboard, because the strings are too high.

Ask me how I know that.

 

[nogbert]

He doesn’t know if there are issues with the fingerboard, because the strings are too high.

Ask me how I know that.

i thought the same thing but I wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt.

 

[BigBottom49]

i'd at least call a luthier and get a quote to see if its worth you time (and possible frustration).

You make a good point. I should at least get a quote so I have an actual reference point before I dive in. There are several DB luthiers around me in Atlanta so it shouldn't be a problem to get quote.

He doesn’t know if there are issues with the fingerboard, because the strings are too high.

This is also true. I've put my straight edge along it and I'm generally happy with it, but once that string height comes down the story could change of course. I've set my height target a little on the high side for this reason.

 

[BigBottom49]

Follow up; I took it to a local luthier and he did the string/bridge height adjustment and moved the bridge to the correct spot for only $40. The bass plays fantastic now and everyone in the shop agreed that it was a good sounding bass and ready to go with just the bridge adjustment. No problems with neck or fingerboard. I'm glad I followed the advice of nogbert and checked with a local luthier. I was surprised that it was so inexpensive to get that work done. The guy did a really nice job too.

I had some problems trying to get any kind of a quote from three of the violin type luthiers in town I contacted. Like salcott, they were pretty sure I was incapable of diagnosing my own problem so they would only say, "bring it in and we'll take a look at it." They refused to tell me how much it might be to only do the bridge (height and position) and nothing more.

 

[james condino]

If you are a working bass luthier, the telephone rings all day long with people who say, "Everything is fine, I only need the nut fixed..."

They show up a week later and, correct, the nut needs to be adjusted....but 95% of the time so does the bridge and the neck joint is loose and the bassbar is collapsed and fifteen other things combine, so nobody gives a real quote on the telephone because it is impossible to be accurate and honest with an incredibly fragile, old, six foot tall eggshell that is under 300 lbs of tension and stored in the back of a pickup truck...oh yeah, and my ex wife ran it over with the car as she was leaving so I put it back together with gorilla glue and duct tape, but now I just need a new "kickstand".

With bass luthiers, there is no conspiracy, they just need to see it before they can answer your question so they can give an honest answer and not misrepresent or disappoint you with the conversation. I'd guess that only one in 30 phone calls accurately details the real problem.

With violin luthiers, the answer is simple: They &%$#@!& hate basses and will do anything to convince you to go somewhere else...

 

[Joshua]

If you are a working bass luthier, the telephone rings all day long with people who say, "Everything is fine, I only need the nut fixed..."

They show up a week later and, correct, the nut needs to be adjusted....but 95% of the time so does the bridge and the neck joint is loose and the bassbar is collapsed and fifteen other things combine, so nobody gives a real quote on the telephone because it is impossible to be accurate and honest with an incredibly fragile, old, six foot tall eggshell that is under 300 lbs of tension and stored in the back of a pickup truck...oh yeah, and my ex wife ran it over with the car as she was leaving so I put it back together with gorilla glue and duct tape, but now I just need a new "kickstand".

With bass luthiers, there is no conspiracy, they just need to see it before they can answer your question so they can give an honest answer and not misrepresent or disappoint you with the conversation. I'd guess that only one in 30 phone calls accurately details the real problem.

With violin luthiers, the answer is simple: They &%$#@!& hate basses and will do anything to convince you to go somewhere else...

I only wish I could "like" this post many more times. Out of college, I was floor manager for Connecticut's premier woodwind/brass repair shop, and this very situation was THE running joke of the store. The owner, a wonderfully crotchety old man with a good sense of humor, would take great pleasure in coming up with sarcastic answers that were always much funnier to him (and us) than the caller.

 

[Heifetzbass]

You make a good point. I should at least get a quote so I have an actual reference point before I dive in. There are several DB luthiers around me in Atlanta so it shouldn't be a problem to get quote.


This is also true. I've put my straight edge along it and I'm generally happy with it, but once that string height comes down the story could change of course. I've set my height target a little on the high side for this reason.

Take it to Emery Clements!
BG

 

[dan1952]

If you are a working bass luthier, the telephone rings all day long with people who say, "Everything is fine, I only need the nut fixed..."

They show up a week later and, correct, the nut needs to be adjusted....but 95% of the time so does the bridge and the neck joint is loose and the bassbar is collapsed and fifteen other things combine, so nobody gives a real quote on the telephone because it is impossible to be accurate and honest with an incredibly fragile, old, six foot tall eggshell that is under 300 lbs of tension and stored in the back of a pickup truck...oh yeah, and my ex wife ran it over with the car as she was leaving so I put it back together with gorilla glue and duct tape, but now I just need a new "kickstand".

With bass luthiers, there is no conspiracy, they just need to see it before they can answer your question so they can give an honest answer and not misrepresent or disappoint you with the conversation. I'd guess that only one in 30 phone calls accurately details the real problem.

With violin luthiers, the answer is simple: They &%$#@!& hate basses and will do anything to convince you to go somewhere else...

As usual, Mr. Condino, you are absolutely right. Just as with a car, no reputable repairman will give you a quote on a repair without actually seeing the patient!