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Building a Phil Lesh rig - Advice, discussion and b.s.

Rhythmdoctor

Rhythmdoctor

Aug 2, 2021
145
144
Chicago, USA
#1
Ok, I've started a few threads in the past several weeks and I think it's now time for a centralized thread on what I'm really working towards. A quick summary of me and my goals.

Me: rhythm guitarist and songwriter for nearly 30 years. In my musical career I've played primarily acoustic guitar - a Gibson Advanced Jumbo being my guitar of choice - but I have played electric in bands as well (Gibson ES-335). Last year, I began playing bass mainly because there were 3 of us guitarists always jamming and playing shows together but 2 of us were rhythm only. One day I finally told the fellas I'd try bass. Well, not only did it work, bass is now my passion. I still write songs and perform as a solo artist but I absolutely LOVE the bass!

From that experiment last summer, I began playing bass like 40 hours a week as a few bands were asking me to play bass. Then I finally fell into a Dead tribute band with some very close friends. Now that we had a bass player (me), we could form a full band, not just a group of acoustic players. As I was playing Dead on my Fender Jazz bass at the time, the tone was just not up to my standards. So I ended up purchasing an Alembic Spoiler (wish I could afford the Series I) about 6 months ago.

So that brings me to recent weeks. Up to this point I've been playing thru a GK 212 combo amp daisy-chained to a GK 115 combo. For me being a newb bass player the combo amp was an easy entry level rig. There's nothing terrible about this amp combo but it's not the high fidelity I desire. So I made up my mind in the last several weeks that I'm going to work towards a high fidelity rig. I began searching for the Alembic F-2b preamp to start my build and this week I finally secured on via Reverb. It should be here next week.

Where I'm at now: I'm pretty sure I've settled on a 4x10 vertical cab by RevSound. I'm also considering a 4x10 Bag End. I've been to their HQ as it's in the burbs near me (Chicago) and I like their products but I really love the idea of the vertical setup by RevSound. Either way, point is, I know which cab I will be purchasing but open to suggestions.

What I need help with at this point is what power amplifier I should be looking at. I've done enough research on here where I think I'm ok with SS power amp. In other words, having the F-2b makes it less important that I get a tube power amp. But this is where I'm looking for suggestions.

That's a lot of words for a small ask but I wanted to aggregate all my previous posts and threads into one for ease of use and harmonization. This is a process, so figured best to streamline into one thread instead of a scattered mess.

I also play in a Phish tribute band and we had a gig last night that was captured very well on a livestream. Pasting the link below in case anyone wants to hear what my current setup sounds like. I will say that the sound and visual of the live stream is excellent! Much better than others we've done in the past. I'm very happy with the final product!

Dog Faced Band Archived livestream from 9/30/2021 (FFWD to 2 hour 25 minute mark or so) -
 
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#4
IMHO the current crop of PA power amps should all be full-range, flat response. When doing double blind testing, your not really supposed to be able to discern the difference. So the primary thing to look for is the power level and features you want.

Keep in mind that bridging an amp changes the minimum impedance. For example, if an amp is safe to 2 ohms in stereo, in bridge mode it will typically be safe to 4 ohms.

Another important factor to consider is the amp's sensitivity rating and how it relates to the F2B's output level. Sensitivity is the signal level required to push the amp to its full, rated power. The F2B manual says the output level is 1V which translates to 2.22 dBu. So you need an amp with a sensitivity rating that is lower than 1V or 2.22dBu.

The FB2 is a great sounding pre IMHO, but I would not necessarily call it HiFi as it does have some baked in voicing (which I love).

If you really want HiFi, I would suggest you consider something like the Millenia Media TD-1.

Millennia TD-1 | Millennia Music & Media Systems (mil-media.com)

IMHO one of the RevSound RS410Vs is probably not going to deliver the full Wall of Sound/Phil Lesh experience. A pair would probably get you reasonably close, but not sure how stable it would be to stack two of these cabs vertically. You might get there if you elevate the cab so the top driver is at ear level, or perhaps a bit higher.

A couple of other discontinued preamps that will get you in the ballpark are the Trace Elliot V-Type preamp, and the coveted Kern IP or BP-777.

If I was still into a rack-based bass rig, I might consider jumping on this one: For Sale - Kern BP-777 Bass Preamp | TalkBass.com

I personally think you should just go out and play a bunch of gear, and then choose the combination of amps and cabs that you think sounds great. Phil Lesh no longer plays through the Wall of Sound. I believe he is now known for using Eden and Hartke gear.

Also notice the EQ curve in this photo:
philhartke-rig-jpg.jpg

The highs and lows are rolled off.


Good luck!
 
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#6
I'm just here to watch and say "Good luck!" There are a bunch of guys here who can help better than I can. You're lucky to have not one, but TWO bands in which to apply this project. One question you could ask yourself is, "Which era of Phil Sound am I after?"

I found this video and the bassist plays what I thought would be the most UNLIKELY bass to go for Phil's sound—a Rickenbacker! But it works for that early era! Check it out!
 
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#8
In the early days, Phil played Kustom and Dual Showman amps and cabs loaded with JBL D140's. By '72 the JBL's were more numerous and put in individual custom Hard Truckers cabs, which eventually made up the Wall Of Sound in '74. He played these through McIntosh 2300 power amps and the Alembic F-2B preamp. His modified custom Guild/Alembic hybrid had active electronics and a onboard tone/filter system, which could be probably replicated to a degree with the Alembic SF-2 Superfilter. (As well, an Alembic F-1X pre would do in place of the F-2B).

Phil had a really clean but still bassy sound, due in part to the semi-hollowbody Guild. The Guild>F2-B>McIntosh>JBL-D140's, however heavy and impractical (and expensive) by today's standards, is still the pinnacle of his bass gear setup imo.

If you're rolling in dough and have a strong back, you might want to check out the Southeby's GD auction coming up next week. They'll be auctioning off parts of the Wall Of Sound, including functioning McIntosh 2300's, which come in road cases, but at 130lbs, they're not light.
 
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#10
What is the impedance of the RevSound cab you ordered?

Do you play a lot of outdoor gigs?

QSC's have always been my go to amps, a bridged RMX-850 (provided the cab is not lower than 4 ohms) would put a lot of power in it with old school iron transformers. But they weigh in around 32 pounds. PLX series is great and comes in at 21 pounds.

I use a tube preamp (Ampeg SVP-Pro, and it's got TOOBS (five), not a TOOB, from what I have read only the graphic EQ uses IC's and that of course can be bypassed. Anyway it works for me very well with a QSC-PLX1602 into two four ohm cabs but my style is about 180 degrees away from Phil Lesh so take my advice with a boulder of salt LOL

Analogeezer
 
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#11
Jigmay said:
I'm just here to watch and say "Good luck!" There are a bunch of guys here who can help better than I can. You're lucky to have not one, but TWO bands in which to apply this project. One question you could ask yourself is, "Which era of Phil Sound am I after?"

I found this video and the bassist plays what I thought would be the most UNLIKELY bass to go for Phil's sound—a Rickenbacker! But it works for that early era! Check it out!
Click to expand...
omg...why does that ric sound like that??? flats, what else? must be more to it... amazing.
 
#13
HotelX said:
If you want to sound like Phil play like Phil. IMHO gear doesn't make as much of a difference as you think. He has changed his gear quite a bit through the years

https://jam.buzz/extra/phil-lesh-gear-guide/
Click to expand...

True. I have a hard time playing lead behind a singer like Phil and Gerry did. My guitarist/singer encourages me to feel free to play a lot (we are just a three piece) but I can't go full Phil.

that said my tone, while not Phil's, is very good. P bass w TI's, a Messenger pre that really adds clarity, a TH and Berg cabs.

gear has evolved so much that I think we should take advantage of it and not worry about what someone used back in the day. Just .02.
 
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#14
First thing's first, you're playing with a pick right? Flats? With regard to the power amp, I'd just get whatever clean and powerful solid state (Class D) amp you can afford (built in DSP can be helpful).

Beyond gear, this is an excellent article about playing in the style of Phil: https://bassmusicianmagazine.com/2020/12/welcome-to-the-phil-zone-a-lesson-in-the-phil-lesh-style/

It seems like you're well on your way in terms of gear. I'd consult with @edwinhurwitz for the finer points if I were you.
 
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#15
To play and sound like Phil Lesh is scarcely tied to gear. He played a great variety of gear that changed with every tour. His signal was routed, bent, split, distorted, cleaned, amplified, attenuated, shaped and changed endlessly. Even the benchmark Alembic-modified Guild was not likely a static build. I think he had Wickersham tweak it often.

I propose that your best path to what you're after is to keep "Searching for the Sound" [Lesh's memoir title].
 
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#17
Are you going for the early 70s Phil or, are you looking for something that can cover his whole career?

What Bass are you using?
I assume you're rack mounting the pre and power? Anything else in the chain?

I think I interacted with your other post(s) so, I hope I'm not repeating myself too much. If you want that 70s Phil sound, Pyramid Gold Flats on almost any Bass and a parametric EQ will get you very close on pretty much any rig. I'll add that his sound wasn't all that clean at any stage. I don't have any experience with the F-2b and what amount of breakup you can summon from it. If it's super clean, you'll want to add an overdrive somewhere in there.
 
Last edited:
#18
I don't think the power amp really matters all that much. Power is power. I think your preamp is way more important, and I think you are on the right track.
With that,,, I'd just go for a light weight Class D power amp with a lot of watts. Like a Crest Pro-Lite series.

If you want a big huge all tube power amp, check out the Aguilar DB728. Again, I think the Pre-amp is where the tone is at.

Just do your research, because (I think) the F-2B has something funny about something, and does not match up well with a lot of power amps. Do your research on that. Maybe somebody will chime in. -- @Passinwind would be able to tell you.
 
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#19
Rhythmdoctor said:
Ok, I've started a few threads in the past several weeks and I think it's now time for a centralized thread on what I'm really working towards. A quick summary of me and my goals.

Me: rhythm guitarist and songwriter for nearly 30 years. In my musical career I've played primarily acoustic guitar - a Gibson Advanced Jumbo being my guitar of choice - but I have played electric in bands as well (Gibson ES-335). Last year, I began playing bass mainly because there were 3 of us guitarists always jamming and playing shows together but 2 of us were rhythm only. One day I finally told the fellas I'd try bass. Well, not only did it work, bass is now my passion. I still write songs and perform as a solo artist but I absolutely LOVE the bass!

From that experiment last summer, I began playing bass like 40 hours a week as a few bands were asking me to play bass. Then I finally fell into a Dead tribute band with some very close friends. Now that we had a bass player (me), we could form a full band, not just a group of acoustic players. As I was playing Dead on my Fender Jazz bass at the time, the tone was just not up to my standards. So I ended up purchasing an Alembic Spoiler (wish I could afford the Series I) about 6 months ago.

So that brings me to recent weeks. Up to this point I've been playing thru a GK 212 combo amp daisy-chained to a GK 115 combo. For me being a newb bass player the combo amp was an easy entry level rig. There's nothing terrible about this amp combo but it's not the high fidelity I desire. So I made up my mind in the last several weeks that I'm going to work towards a high fidelity rig. I began searching for the Alembic F-2b preamp to start my build and this week I finally secured on via Reverb. It should be here next week.

Where I'm at now: I'm pretty sure I've settled on a 4x10 vertical cab by RevSound. I'm also considering a 4x10 Bag End. I've been to their HQ as it's in the burbs near me (Chicago) and I like their products but I really love the idea of the vertical setup by RevSound. Either way, point is, I know which cab I will be purchasing but open to suggestions.

What I need help with at this point is what power amplifier I should be looking at. I've done enough research on here where I think I'm ok with SS power amp. In other words, having the F-2b makes it less important that I get a tube power amp. But this is where I'm looking for suggestions.

That's a lot of words for a small ask but I wanted to aggregate all my previous posts and threads into one for ease of use and harmonization. This is a process, so figured best to streamline into one thread instead of a scattered mess.

I also play in a Phish tribute band and we had a gig last night that was captured very well on a livestream. Pasting the link below in case anyone wants to hear what my current setup sounds like. I will say that the sound and visual of the live stream is excellent! Much better than others we've done in the past. I'm very happy with the final product!

Dog Faced Band Archived livestream from 9/30/2021 (FFWD to 2 hour 25 minute mark or so) -
Click to expand...


Unless the look of a rack containing an Alembic F-2B is important to you, I would consider getting yourself a Sushi Box Particle Accelerator X preamp pedal for WWWAAAYYY less money. I got mine over the Summer for $180 and it is tube driven and sounds just as good as the Alembic F-2B and F-1X preamps I've owned over the years. In some ways, it's better because it has a gain/master volume setup which enables you to dial in a little grit if you want. There's no DI on it, but if that's something you want/need, there are many inexpensive DI boxes that'll do just fine. I have a Whirlwind IMP-2 direct box that I got used for $25 many years ago that has served me well and soundmen seem to like. If you really want an all tube sound, Lesh used to use Fender Showman heads ... get yourself one of those. Otherwise, there are all kinds of solid state poweramps that'll do just fine and there are lots of amp heads with effects return, line in or poweramp in jacks that'll enable you to use an external preamp (like the Sushi Box Particle Accelerator X) to access their power section directly. As far as speaker cabinets ... the world is your oyster ... lotsa HI-FI options available to you.
 
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#20
Analogeezer said:
What is the impedance of the RevSound cab you ordered?

Do you play a lot of outdoor gigs?

QSC's have always been my go to amps, a bridged RMX-850 (provided the cab is not lower than 4 ohms) would put a lot of power in it with old school iron transformers. But they weigh in around 32 pounds. PLX series is great and comes in at 21 pounds.

I use a tube preamp (Ampeg SVP-Pro, and it's got TOOBS (five), not a TOOB, from what I have read only the graphic EQ uses IC's and that of course can be bypassed. Anyway it works for me very well with a QSC-PLX1602 into two four ohm cabs but my style is about 180 degrees away from Phil Lesh so take my advice with a boulder of salt LOL

Analogeezer
Click to expand...
Looks like it's 8 ohms. Link to cab specs: RS410V/RS410VT | RevSound
 

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