Building a setup for a two piece - is a Tone Hammer 350 enough?

[ole Jason]

I have a TH350. At 4 ohms into a good cab w/ multiple speakers it is more than enough for any gig you'll be doing without PA support. Realistically there is very little difference in perceived volume output from a TH500 and TH350... likely the reason the 350 has been discontinued.

 

[groove pump]

I’m playing in a two-piece rock band - lots of Royal Blood, White Stripes, etc - and currently putting together a rig for live shows.

Our rehearsal space has an Aguilar Tone Hammer 500 hooked up to a DB410 cab, and I love the tone. Right now, I’m thinking about getting a Tone Hammer 350 and pairing it with an SL210 cab. Is that a powerful enough to rock without a PA? We’ll most likely just be playing bars and such.

I'm happy with whatever sounds nice and also makes enough volume for the settings where my band finds itself. I'm just used to playing through 2x10's - they fit in my car, I can load them by myself, and they make big sound for me when I play two of them together in a vertical stack (end on end). I don't think that 10's are superior or inferior to 15's, 12's, or anything else. I've just landed here with this layout.

When I decided to upgrade my mediocre pair of 2x10 cabs a few years ago, I found both an Acme Low B2 and an SWR Goliath Jr. at two different locations not too far from me and they were priced at $200 each. I rolled the dice on putting two different cabs together and they've worked fine (no phasing issues). Two great deals that I found only a couple days after I decided to shop for new cabs. They're out there.

The two amps I'm using are a GK MB 500 - remarkably loud and clear given its power rating - and a Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0, which I also adore. I consider them my #1 and #1A - both are terrific for shows and I don't consider either one to be the "backup" to the other. I can say that if we're playing outdoors without PA support, the GK gets the nod, since it seems to have the edge in terms of pushing an extra bit of loudness. Both are plenty for playing indoors and I like/trust both enough that I sort of let them take turns. I used that one for our last gig, so this one gets the duties for this show.

I do use only one cab for gigs that we do at one place that's sort of a pizza bar - small enough that we don't have to turn up so much to get it rockin'. But for louder venues or playing outdoors as I mentioned above, I know that I'd be pushing my luck using only one of my cabs and not both of them.

If I need to make a lot of sound, my first priority is having enough speaker area and not an ocean of power. I very much agree with our pal @MrLenny1 above in post #19. When I first bought my GK, I was worried that it might not have enough power (compared with the MB 800), but now I'm sure that anything more powerful than that particular model would be overkill for me - more than I could use.

If the TH 350 is within your budget, I'd say grab that and give it enough speakers to push the amount of sound you need for your material. You don't need to go boutique level for speakers (that SL210 might cost a lot more than what you need to assemble a solid rig), but "better" cabs really do make a difference in terms of getting the quality sound and substantial volume levels you probably want. If you consider stretching your budget anywhere, spend a little extra on your cab(s).

 

[Hounddog409]

I’m playing in a two-piece rock band - lots of Royal Blood, White Stripes, etc - and currently putting together a rig for live shows.

Our rehearsal space has an Aguilar Tone Hammer 500 hooked up to a DB410 cab, and I love the tone. Right now, I’m thinking about getting a Tone Hammer 350 and pairing it with an SL210 cab. Is that a powerful enough to rock without a PA? We’ll most likely just be playing bars and such.

...if you add a second 210 cab it is.

I gig with a Hartke TX300 and 2 hartke 210 cabs. Some with PA, some without.

Of course the guitar player and drummer have common sense and set levels to the room with no volume wars....

 

[Aalter]

...if you add a second 210 cab it is.

I gig with a Hartke TX300 and 2 hartke 210 cabs. Some with PA, some without.

Of course the guitar player and drummer have common sense and set levels to the room with no volume wars....

That is the nice part about just being bass/drums - only two pieces to contend with!

 

[john hennessy]

I went the route of 500w head with a used 4 ohm 2x12 and I’d recommend it if you can find something local or with cheap shipping. I drove a few hours for a Genz Benz Neoxt 212 for $400 and it’s very loud and efficient, covers bar gigs easily for my 3 piece rock band with a 1 trip load in. Gallien Krueger also has been making neo 212s for a while so there are a good number floating around.

The aguilar cabs are great but expensive and I didn’t see many pop up for sale used when I was cab shopping, so if you want to save some money mixing and matching may be a good idea

 

[dabis]

I have a TH350. At 4 ohms into a good cab w/ multiple speakers it is more than enough for any gig you'll be doing without PA support. Realistically there is very little difference in perceived volume output from a TH500 and TH350... likely the reason the 350 has been discontinued.

Same here. TH350 with SWR GIII 2x10 or 4x10 depending on the gig. The 4x10 sounds noticiable better, louder and lower.

Didn't know that the TH350 it's been discontinued, a shame.

 

[Wasnex]

How loud do you need to play? I find that a rig rated for at least 124dB is usually enough for my needs. IMHO, it's not always loud enough, but I am not willing to turn up much beyond 124dB.

Keep in mind that 124dB is my number...your number may be higher or lower.

Power Ratings:

The TH350 is rated 175W at 8 ohms and 350W at 4 ohms
The TH500 is rated 250W at 8 ohms and 500W at 4 ohms.​

If you know how much SPL you need, you can figure out the minimum Sensitivity required to reach your goal.

Required Sensitivity = Target SPL - Decibel Change.

Let's say your Target SPL is 124dB (like mine).

To figure out the required minimum sensitivity, we need to know how much of a decibel change occurs between 1W and the usable power we have available. Usable power is the lesser value been the amp's power rating and the speaker's power rating. So if you have a 400W amp and a 300W speaker, the usable power is 300W. Or if you have 250W amp and a 400W speaker, the usable power is 250W.

Here are the decibel changes based on the TH350 and TH500 power ratings.

8 ohm cab with TH350 = 1-175W = ~22.4dB change
8 ohm cab with TH500 = 1-250W = ~24dB change
4 ohm cab with TH350 = 1-350W = ~25.4dB change
4 ohm cab with TH500 = 1-500W = ~27dB change

Note the figures above show a ~3dB change when you double the power...this is a good rule to remember.
175-350W = +3dB
250-500W = +3dB

Now if you know the cab's Sensitivity Rating measured at 1W/1m, you easily figure out how loud it will play, you simply add the decibel change from usable power to the Sensitivity rating.

For example in this post: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/bu...tone-hammer-350-enough.1636793/#post-28118853 it is shown that the TH500 with a 4 ohm DB410 makes ~128dB with 500W. The decibel change from 1 to 500W is 27dB and we simply add this figure to the 101dB Sensitivity rating to get 128dB: 127 + 101 = 128dB

Back to our required Sensitivity Ratings based on our desire for 124dB minimum.

Here is the formula: Required Sensitivity = Target SPL - Decibel Change

8 ohm cab with TH350 = 1-175W = ~22.4dB

Required Sensitivity = 124 - 22.4 = 101.6dB min sensitivity rating
​

8 ohm cab with TH500 = 1-250W = ~24dB

Required Sensitivity = 124 - 24 = 100dB min sensitivity rating
​

4 ohm cab with TH350 = 1-350W = ~25.4dB

Required Sensitivity = 124 - 25.4 = 98.6dB min sensitivity rating
​

4 ohm cab with TH500 = 1-500W = ~27dB

Required Sensitivity = 124 - 27 = 97dB min sensitivity rating
​

The Aguilar DB410 is rated at 101dB 1W/1m and it's available in 4 or 8 ohms. The power rating is 700W. The sensitivity rating is high enough to meet the 124dB goal in either impedance with the TH500. But you need the 4 ohm version to reach the goal with the TH350. The 8 ohm version makes 123.4dB calculated at 175W. Perhaps it's close enough?

The Aguilar SL210 is rated 97.3dB 1W/1m and is only available in 8 ohms. The power rating is 400W, but neither amp makes 400W a 8 ohms. The sensitivity rating is not high enough to meet the 124dB target at 8 ohms with either amp. Or you could say, neither amp make enough power at 8 ohms to produce 124dB with this cab. Even worse, the SL210 is not quite capable of 124dB without exceeding its 400W power rating. Calculated SPL at 400W is ~123.3dB.

If you find a 4 ohm cab that you like with at least a 97dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating, the TH500 barely meets the 124dB target, as long as the cab can handle 500W.

If you choose a cab with a sensitivity rating of 97dB or lower, you may need to consider running a pair for high volume situations.

When you add a matching cab, usually it's connected in parallel. The combined impedance is 1/2, power handling doubles, and sensitivity goes up by ~3dB.

So a pair of SL210 would be rated 100.3dB 1W/1m, the combined impedance is 4 ohms, and the combined power handling is 800W. Note the required sensitivity with the TH350 at 4 ohms is 98.6dB, so a pair of SL210s will exceed our 124dB target with this amp. Calculated SPL is ~125.7dB

With the TH500 and a pair of SL210s, calculated SPL is ~127.3dB.

 

[MattZilla]

Another vote for getting a guitar amp & HPF.

I’m into having Octave down go to the bass amp, but everything else go to the guitar amp. Blues Jr would probably be fine.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

With a 4 ohm 4x10, yes.
With an 8ohm 2x10, probably not.
Invest in your speakers.

Depends on the other member, (Drummer ?, Guitarist? Tracks?) and what they are playing through and how loud they are. Other considerations, room size number of patrons and so forth.

With just a guess, 410s would work in a lot of situation for sure. 410 cabs are not fun to transport, and I'll lay a wager there will be times/gigs where a 210 would do nicely.

Me? I'd buy one efficient 210 and ad a second one if you need it. Just remember, adding speakers is cheaper than a bigger amp per dB.

Hope you all find success.

 

[Aalter]

Another vote for getting a guitar amp & HPF.

I’m into having Octave down go to the bass amp, but everything else go to the guitar amp. Blues Jr would probably be fine.

That’s the dream…one day. Sticking to a one-amp setup for now. Long live the Boss LS-2, lol.

 

[Aalter]

How loud do you need to play? I find that a rig rated for at least 124dB is usually enough for my needs. IMHO, it's not always loud enough, but I am not willing to turn up much beyond 124dB.

Keep in mind that 124dB is my number...your number may be higher or lower.

Power Ratings:

The TH350 is rated 175W at 8 ohms and 350W at 4 ohms
The TH500 is rated 250W at 8 ohms and 500W at 4 ohms.​

If you know how much SPL you need, you can figure out the minimum Sensitivity required to reach your goal.

Required Sensitivity = Target SPL - Decibel Change.

Let's say your Target SPL is 124dB (like mine).

To figure out the required minimum sensitivity, we need to know how much of a decibel change occurs between 1W and the usable power we have available. Usable power is the lesser value been the amp's power rating and the speaker's power rating. So if you have a 400W amp and a 300W speaker, the usable power is 300W. Or if you have 250W amp and a 400W speaker, the usable power is 250W.

Here are the decibel changes based on the TH350 and TH500 power ratings.

8 ohm cab with TH350 = 1-175W = ~22.4dB change
8 ohm cab with TH500 = 1-250W = ~24dB change
4 ohm cab with TH350 = 1-350W = ~25.4dB change
4 ohm cab with TH500 = 1-500W = ~27dB change

Note the figures above show a ~3dB change when you double the power...this is a good rule to remember.
175-350W = +3dB
250-500W = +3dB

Now if you know the cab's Sensitivity Rating measured at 1W/1m, you easily figure out how loud it will play, you simply add the decibel change from usable power to the Sensitivity rating.

For example in this post: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/bu...tone-hammer-350-enough.1636793/#post-28118853 it is shown that the TH500 with a 4 ohm DB410 makes ~128dB with 500W. The decibel change from 1 to 500W is 27dB and we simply add this figure to the 101dB Sensitivity rating to get 128dB: 127 + 101 = 128dB

Back to our required Sensitivity Ratings based on our desire for 124dB minimum.

Here is the formula: Required Sensitivity = Target SPL - Decibel Change

8 ohm cab with TH350 = 1-175W = ~22.4dB

Required Sensitivity = 124 - 22.4 = 101.6dB min sensitivity rating
​

8 ohm cab with TH500 = 1-250W = ~24dB

Required Sensitivity = 124 - 24 = 100dB min sensitivity rating
​

4 ohm cab with TH350 = 1-350W = ~25.4dB

Required Sensitivity = 124 - 25.4 = 98.6dB min sensitivity rating
​

4 ohm cab with TH500 = 1-500W = ~27dB

Required Sensitivity = 124 - 27 = 97dB min sensitivity rating
​

The Aguilar DB410 is rated at 101dB 1W/1m and it's available in 4 or 8 ohms. The power rating is 700W. The sensitivity rating is high enough to meet the 124dB goal in either impedance with the TH500. But you need the 4 ohm version to reach the goal with the TH350. The 8 ohm version makes 123.4dB calculated at 175W. Perhaps it's close enough?

The Aguilar SL210 is rated 97.3dB 1W/1m and is only available in 8 ohms. The power rating is 400W, but neither amp makes 400W a 8 ohms. The sensitivity rating is not high enough to meet the 124dB target at 8 ohms with either amp. Or you could say, neither amp make enough power at 8 ohms to produce 124dB with this cab. Even worse, the SL210 is not quite capable of 124dB without exceeding its 400W power rating. Calculated SPL at 400W is ~123.3dB.

If you find a 4 ohm cab that you like with at least a 97dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating, the TH500 barely meets the 124dB target, as long as the cab can handle 500W.

If you choose a cab with a sensitivity rating of 97dB or lower, you may need to consider running a pair for high volume situations.

When you add a matching cab, usually it's connected in parallel. The combined impedance is 1/2, power handling doubles, and sensitivity goes up by ~3dB.

So a pair of SL210 would be rated 100.3dB 1W/1m, the combined impedance is 4 ohms, and the combined power handling is 800W. Note the required sensitivity with the TH350 at 4 ohms is 98.6dB, so a pair of SL210s will exceed our 124dB target with this amp. Calculated SPL is ~125.7dB

With the TH500 and a pair of SL210s, calculated SPL is ~127.3dB.

Thank you so much for all of this! What do you think about a 4 OHM, 400 watt 115? If I’m understanding correctly, that would let me use all of the TH350’s power, as opposed to just 175 at 8.

 

[Astronaut]

If your drummer isn’t deaf, I’d say it’s ideal.

 

[Aalter]

If your drummer isn’t deaf, I’d say it’s ideal.

Ha, he’s definitely not! No volume wars here.

 

[Wasnex]

Thank you so much for all of this! What do you think about a 4 OHM, 400 watt 115? If I’m understanding correctly, that would let me use all of the TH350’s power, as opposed to just 175 at 8.

Maximizing the power does not tell you how loud a rig will play. You also need to know the Sensitivity of the cab at 1W/1m.

Here are the decibel changes based on the TH350 power ratings.

8 ohm cab with TH350 = 1-175W = ~22.4dB change
4 ohm cab with TH350 = 1-350W = ~25.4dB change

If you get an 8 ohm cab with a sensitivity rating of 103dB 1W/1m, the calculated SPL at 175W is 22.4 + 103 = 124.4dB

If you get a 4 ohm cab with a sensitivity rating of 97dB 1W/1m the calculated SPL at 350W is 25.4 + 97 = 122.4dB.

In this example the 8 ohm cab is 2dB louder.

IMHO, better to focus on how loud an amp/cab combination can play rather worrying about getting max power from the amp.

 

[Aalter]

Maximizing the power does not tell you how loud a rig will play. You also need to know the Sensitivity of the cab at 1W/1m.



If you get an 8 ohm cab with a sensitivity rating of 103dB 1W/1m, the calculated SPL at 175W is 22.4 + 103 = 124.4dB

If you get a 4 ohm cab with a sensitivity rating of 97dB 1W/1m the calculated SPL at 350W is 25.4 + 97 = 122.4dB.

In this example the 8 ohm cab is 2dB louder.

IMHO, better to focus on how loud an amp/cab combination can play rather worrying about getting max power from the amp.

Ah, gotcha - that makes sense.