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Cab coatings explained - sort of

#21
rpatter said:
LDS farms it out to a local company that uses a proprietary system. That's why it only cost you $50! I think Don calls it bedliner because the finish is similar and people are more familiar with the term "bedliner" than with whatever the proprietary finish goes by.

Ralf
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I won't go into the economics and reasons behind this answer, but it's very unlikely that any cab that is "farmed out" to another shop for coating is a proprietary system. I've seen pictures of the LDS cabs and seen them in person and they look very nice, but it would be nearly impossible from an industry perspective to farm them out and get a proprietary system application. It just doesn't work that way, unless he has a very special, very unique relationship with one of the industrial applicators *and* happens to work within 15 miles of their facilities, which is pretty unlikely.
 
#22
redstaraudio said:
I won't go into the economics and reasons behind this answer, but it's very unlikely that any cab that is "farmed out" to another shop for coating is a proprietary system. I've seen pictures of the LDS cabs and seen them in person and they look very nice, but it would be nearly impossible from an industry perspective to farm them out and get a proprietary system application. It just doesn't work that way, unless he has a very special, very unique relationship with one of the industrial applicators *and* happens to work within 15 miles of their facilities, which is pretty unlikely.
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Economics and reasons behind the answer?! I don't want to start a flame war, but I take exception with the insinuation I'm reading in your post (maybe I'm reading it wrong?). Anyway, my motivation was merely to answer the question.

To your point: I agree, it usually doesn't work that way, but in this case Don does have a very unique relationship with an industrial applicator. Although I think his shop is more like 25 miles from them.

Ralf
 
#23
rpatter said:
Economics and reasons behind the answer?! I don't want to start a flame war, but I take exception with the insinuation I'm reading in your post (maybe I'm reading it wrong?). Anyway, my motivation was merely to answer the question.
Ralf
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Sorry - i meant because it would get complicated, not because it was a bad or dumb question. No insinuation was in there at all.

All i meant was that based on our experiences, any coatings farmed out were probably not proprietary systems. That's all - no other subtext there other than that, and certainly not about LDS or it's products or processes. LDS may very well be an exception that we don't know about, happens every day!
 
#24
Thanx for the info on this. Definitely gives a bit more clarification to the different types of coatings available.

Im guessing all of them are better than carpet when it comes to cats using your cab as a scratching post? :D
 
#25
redstaraudio said:
Sorry - i meant because it would get complicated, not because it was a bad or dumb question. No insinuation was in there at all.

All i meant was that based on our experiences, any coatings farmed out were probably not proprietary systems. That's all - no other subtext there other than that, and certainly not about LDS or it's products or processes. LDS may very well be an exception that we don't know about, happens every day!
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No worries - glad it was my misreading. BTW, great topic with some good information in the thread. I vote for this being a sticky. The question comes up regularly in a DIY context.

Ralf
 
#27
#28
Your information matches what my own investigations indicated, though I did not investigate any "proprietary sytems". Thank you, redstaraudio. While I haven't officially crossed the line and become a manufacturer yet, I'll be joining Carvin as a Duratex/Acrytech user; I've been happy with the results so far.

Since even with multiple layers Duratex is still not as tough as the two-part alternatives, I'll probably provide little cans of the stuff that can be used for touch-up jobs as the need arises.
 
#29
Redstar,
Thanks very much for the education; very informative.
Can I assume that many of these coatings absorb some shock and maintain adhesion due to material thickness?

Years ago, I worked at a shop that sparayed textured Sherwinn Williams 2-part epoxy paint (Polane) for metal cabinetry that was incredibly hard; similar to Dupont Imron that is used to paint trucks and aircraft.

I'm assuming that being hard alone is not enough for this application and that the reasonably thin paint covering would allow the wood to dent more easily, and, potentialy flake off.

Another downside of the commercial epoxy materials is that you must wear a full suit with air supply in an OSHA approved both as I believe that cyanide was used in the hardener (at least 15 years ago).
 
#30
Jim C said:
Redstar,
Thanks very much for the education; very informative.
Can I assume that many of these coatings absorb some shock and maintain adhesion due to material thickness?

Years ago, I worked at a shop that sparayed textured Sherwinn Williams 2-part epoxy paint (Polane) for metal cabinetry that was incredibly hard; similar to Dupont Imron that is used to paint trucks and aircraft.

I'm assuming that being hard alone is not enough for this application and that the reasonably thin paint covering would allow the wood to dent more easily, and, potentialy flake off.

Another downside of the commercial epoxy materials is that you must wear a full suit with air supply in an OSHA approved both as I believe that cyanide was used in the hardener (at least 15 years ago).
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Jim,

Yes you're absolutely correct on the impact resistance. The true activated systems have pretty good impact resistance. In fact, the low-pressure systems actually are better because they go on thicker than the high-pressure systems. However, as you note, once the wood substrate gets crushed then they can delaminate. That's why I made the comments about corners. There is no system made that can make a cab not need corners.

The high-pressure commercial systems are indeed hazardous stuff, mainly because of the diisocyanate in the Part A side. In fact, you made a great point: If you hear of a coating compound that is called "iso-based" or an "iso" coating, it means that is one of the higher-end coatings. It's sort of a code-word in the bedliner world. It really is nasty stuff and operators can get sensitized to it quickly. Unless you really don't want to live long, you need a fresh air respirator at all times.

Another interesting thing is that currently, there are few overseas (Asian) manufacturing plants that have these coating capabilities. What's funny is that it's not the guns or the spray equipment, it's the chemicals they have a hard time getting. I imagine it's only a matter of time but until then, it's pretty much the exclusive domain of domestic builders.
 
#33
I threw down some cheap-O Rust-Oleum truck bed liner on my box last night. Just a note, I don't think it gets along with the kilz oil based primer I put on there. Seems to have made a reaction and goo up the primer. After it dried, it seems to be OK, but it definitely wasn't as easy to apply. Not even sure if its going to hand on there very well. About 10 hours after application of 2nd coat, It felt dry to the touch, but when I moved the box, some of it transfered and exposed gooey primer. Hrrrmmmmm...
 
#35
Ukiah Bass said:
Not sure if this is off topic, but how do you get the cab ready for application of the coating? I presume rat fur must be removed, but it's unclear how to do that. In what shape does the wood need to be to bond with the coating? The idea of a liner-type coating sounds great. Thanks for this info!
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Yeah you'll need to remove any coverings and old glue. Best thing is to scrape the old carpet/vinyl off then use a dual-action (DA) sander (elec or air) with 50 grit stearate discs and take it down to bare wood. Even a cheap DA sander, with a few 50 grit discs, will make short work of it.

After the wood is clean of old material and adhesive, sand it again with 80-100 grit to smooth it out. Unless you are shooting the high-pressure/high-heat bedliner product (LineX, Rhino, TOFF, etc.) you DO NOT need to prime. So just to make sure everyone is reading this correctly - you ONLY prime if you take your cab to a bedliner shop and they shoot the high-pressure/high-heat product. Low pressure product (shot from a texture gun) or anything you apply with a roller/brush DOES NOT need primer.
 
#36
redstaraudio said:
...anything you apply with a roller/brush DOES NOT need primer.
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While perhaps not a "primer" in the strictest sense of the word because it's the same stuff, if you're going for a textured finish (like applying Duratex with a textured roller) it's a good idea to first lay down an untextured (perhaps brushed-on) undercoat of the same material and let it dry first. This may not be time-effective for a large manufacturer, but in my opinion it's definitely a worthwhile step for someone DIYing a cab.
 
#39
DukeLeJeune said:
While perhaps not a "primer" in the strictest sense of the word because it's the same stuff, if you're going for a textured finish (like applying Duratex with a textured roller) it's a good idea to first lay down an untextured (perhaps brushed-on) undercoat of the same material and let it dry first. This may not be time-effective for a large manufacturer, but in my opinion it's definitely a worthwhile step for someone DIYing a cab.
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The best textured coatings we ever got with Duratex (which were pretty good, btw) were as follows:

Duratex HB
Slit-foam roller (like used for rough surfaces)

We'd put two *heavy* coats down, overlapping directions, and let dry for a day, then do a light knock-down sand with a long block, 120 grit. Then we'd do a third coat with moderate loading in very quick roll on passes, one direction only.

Later on, we did go ahead and shoot the first two coats for speed and coverage using a very high volume pressure system (we never liked using a texture gun) but we still did the texture pass with a slit foam roller.

Frankly, the texture was the best of anything we used until we bought our way into the system we use now. It pretty much looked like the "elephant skin" Tolex.
 
#40
redstar, thank you for sharing so much information here! While it's true that you're using a superior proprietary system, by sharing your hard-earned knowledge here you're helping DIYers and aspiring small manufacturers like myself who aren't in a position to use a proprietary two-part system. And if you know this much about how to best use a product that's not even part of your manufacturing process, well that says a lot about how thorough your knowledge is of the products you DO use.
 

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