Oh, I know he used the right-hand thumb for things like Birdland, but I was talking about the final 3-note chord on PoT... I haven't watched Modern Electric Bass in a while, but I seem to recall he fingered that with the left hand. Does anyone have a copy handy they can confirm this?
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Can't get harmonics on 6th and 13th Fret!
- Thread starter la_sombra
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Oh, I know he used the right-hand thumb for things like Birdland, but I was talking about the final 3-note chord on PoT... I haven't watched Modern Electric Bass in a while, but I seem to recall he fingered that with the left hand. Does anyone have a copy handy they can confirm this?
Yes & no - the frets are ostensibly at these subdivisions. It's just that the subdivisions have all been "tempered" into 12 equal divisions per octave to allow you to play in any key.
Here's a fun little trick I discovered last night. Play the 4th fret harmonic, which should sound as a major 3rd of the string you're playing it on. Then fret the note by pushing down on the string while the harmonic is ringing. Listen to it go *sharp* since equal temperament makes all thirds sharp.
Nope, the note goes sharp because pressing it down to the fret increases the tension of the string
Nope, the note goes sharp because pressing it down to the fret increases the tension of the string
Does the same thing happen at the 5th fret then?
Nope, the note goes sharp because pressing it down to the fret increases the tension of the string
See, the thing is, it occurs to me ear as a discreet moment of going sharp. The pitch isn't bending, it's a sudden moment. But I'll listen again next time I've got my bass in front of me & I'll try at other harmonics.
Sure! How much it goes sharp depends on how high your action is.
You made a good point about how harmonics sound out-of-tune compared with the 12-note tempered scale. I'd wager to say that this phenomenon is part of the appeal of Portrait of Tracy... For example, the first part uses a lot of 4th fret harmonics, the un-tempered 3rd, which has a pure, beautiful sound. Then about 2/3 of the way through, he gets into some higher-pitched harmonics that are pretty far out of tune compared to their equal-tempered cousins. I think this creates a really nice contrast in tension and release.
It's safe to say that Jaco's ear was pretty sensitive to subtle differences in pitch. Non-tempered harmonics, all of his fretless work, of course, and then there was his Word of Mouth big band, which did not have a keyboard or piano...
What happens if you play the same harmonic at the 9th fret instead of the 4th fret? It doesn't change to E when you fret it, it keeps ringing out as a B. The harmonic gets its pitch from its position on the string, not the fret it is over (for example, the 5th fret harmonic is a G, not a C).
Just to be clear, I agree with 99% of what you're saying, the only part I disagree with is that the untempered B harmonic becomes an equal-tempered B when you fret it. I assert that it goes sharp a random amount that varies from bass to bass, based on how high the action is (and possibly the size of the frets).
Edit: I'm going to try it on my fretless when I get home
Err YES and YES! When you are playing harmonics, frets don't come into it - and the notes you get are based on the harmonic series - pure physics!
But anyway - my point was that the more accurate you are, the better the harmonics will ring out - if you just play over frets you will be inaccurate and the notes will choke!
Look at subdividing working string length and you can see where you need to be!
i dont have large hands and i use my pinky for that stretch, its just practice. not hand size...
What happens if you play the same harmonic at the 9th fret instead of the 4th fret? It doesn't change to E when you fret it, it keeps ringing out as a B. The harmonic gets its pitch from its position on the string, not the fret it is over (for example, the 5th fret harmonic is a G, not a C).
Just to be clear, I agree with 99% of what you're saying, the only part I disagree with is that the untempered B harmonic becomes an equal-tempered B when you fret it. I assert that it goes sharp a random amount that varies from bass to bass, based on how high the action is (and possibly the size of the frets).
Edit: I'm going to try it on my fretless when I get home
I didn't try it over the 9th fret, but I will.
It's not like there's zero relationship between the fretted note and the harmonic. You make it sound like there's a haphazard relationship between the two and whether or not they coincide is completely random and arbitrary, but there's a very close relationship between the two.
Since there's only one 1/2 harmonic it coincides exactly with the note.
Since there are two 1/3 harmonics one coincides with the note over the... would it be 19th fret? and the other one with the octave below at the 7th fret, both I think are the dominant.
Since there are three 1/4 harmonics, one coincides at the 24th fret, the next note is an octave lower at the 12th fret, and the next a fifth lower at the 5th fret. The 5th fret being the only one that isn't an octave of the root, but it is the closely related perfect 4th.
So far all of these have been octaves & "perfect" intervals. These early overtones were given a special name by Pythagoras, whose name slips my mind & Google isn't helping. These were, at the time, considered to be the only consonances and were so for thousands of years until the middle ages when they started experimenting with thirds and sixths.
There are four 1/5 harmonics and it's no coincidence that it lands on the 4th, 9th and 16th frets - all 3rds and 6ths.
I really believe that the reason the sound of the note changes when I fret the note is that the harmonic is actually a bit "flat" of the actual fret and when I fret the note, it forces the pitch to change as well as become 1/4 harmonics of the new sub-strnig section.
Absolutely. Though it's really difficult for me to spot exactly 1/5 of the string. It's much easier to work out the best place to put your finger to find the harmonic by ear & then just remembering the location as being "just behind the 4th fret" or whatever. You just fumble around a bit finding the strongest place for the harmonic and then remember that spot.
But I say that frets are irrelevant as I can get all these harmonics to ring out (acoustically) on my Double Bass - which has no frets and no markings anywhere! 
But I say that frets are irrelevant as I can get all these harmonics to ring out (acoustically) on my Double Bass - which has no frets and no markings anywhere!
Hey, it's not my fault you're using centuries old technology. Get with the times man, electric bass is where it's at.
the reason we adjust the intonation on our electric basses is so that the frets match the equal temperment of a piano... If i play a harmonic above the B on the G string the node isn't actually directly above the fret. However, if you node it above the fret it is close enough to right. the adjustment of intonation at the bridge is actually whats adjusting for the distance the string stretches as you push it down to the fret. It actually visible above the 12th fret. you can see that the harmonic is ringing slightly off of being above the fret, but (if a bass has been set up correctly) the fretted 12th fret should sound the same as the harmonic.
I may not be making sense but i know what i'm trying to get across
I may not be making sense but i know what i'm trying to get across
Hey, it's not my fault you're using centuries old technology. Get with the times man, electric bass is where it's at.
Well I wasn't the one complaining that I couldn't get the harmonics to work!!
PS - I can do the same on EUB and my Lakland 55-02 Deluxe!
For the record it's the same on upright. the harmonics are mapped relative to where certain notes are when pressed. and to upright players here, when you play a high G harmonic right at the node ten press straight down it's not going to be in tune. Because of the lack of frets we don't need bridge adjustment for this, just our ear and knowledge of that specific instrument
Duh... that's what I've been saying for the last 5 or 6 posts!
No they correspond to the harmonic series of each string's working length!
An eminently superior situation!
