Chaining a floor tuner and a DI box

[Shenron]

In our rehearsals, I don't use either. I tune with a clip-on tuner before we start rehearsals and occasionally check again during our breaks. I play an active bass plugged directly into the mixer.

We are talking about possibly having a gig in about 3 months at an office party. There will be a PA system but we don't know yet about it, so I am thinking whether I should get at least an entry-level DI box in case plugging directly into a mixer won't work as expected. At the same time, I think it might be useful to also have a floor tuner stompbox, in case I need adjustments during the gig.

I've asked about DI boxes before, and I think I know that either passive or active DI boxes would be fine with an active bass. I would then prefer passive over active, and if active I would prefer battery-operated over power-supplied, just to have less cables around. My understanding was that any DI box balances an unbalanced signal, but only an active DI box has a low impedance output which is usually what a mixer wants as an input. But with my Ibanez being an active bass, maybe I already have a low impedance output... at least I don't seem to need a DI box with our rehearsal room's mixer.

Reading around on the topic of stompbox tuners, it seems that a lot of people prefer true bypass in the tuner to preserve the instrument's tone. However, it is also said that the drawback of true bypass is losing signal if the output cable is very long (or if there's a lot of other stompboxes in the chain, which isn't my case). The most praised and popular stompbox seems to be the BOSS TU-3, which doesn't have true bypass. If I understand correctly, true bypass means high-impedance output, and 'buffered mode' means low-impedance output. Also in case of tuners, I prefer battery-operated, but I guess this is not directly related to whether they use true bypass or buffered mode.

Now my question is how do I combine these together?

Active Bass -> Tuner -> DI Box -> Mixer

The real question maybe is about if each item in the chain determines whether its own output signal is high or low impedance to the next item in the chain, or if anything up the chain still matters... If I put a true-bypass tuner after my active bass, does it change the low impedance signal of the bass into a high impedance bass, and does it mean the DI Box afterwards needs to be itself an active DI box instead of passive? Should I instead forget about true-bypass and in that case would a passive DI be ok after a tuner in buffered mode?

Edit: I also have a ZOOM B1four with built-in tuner, if I used this then would the output be high-impedance, negating the effect of the active bass? I suppose this pedal doesn't have a true bypass though.

 

[johnh89]

Active bass has a low impedance output so should not need a DI . Wireless dongles the same . Buffered tuner also the same (Boss) . I use a few Triton bigamps for DI purposes with the band . Mostly for piezo guitars and anything else that is new . About the size of a ciggie lighter so can live in the gigbag . Powered by phantom power .

 

[Aloe]

Active Bass -> Tuner -> DI Box -> Mixer

yup, that's the most convenient way to go.

you actually don't need a buffer in your tuner since your bass already has one.

 

[BaltBass5]

Just a few comments:

I think you are WAY overcomplicating a simple signal chain. You are playing an active Ibanez. Ibanez into a tuner (TBP or Buffered) into a Passive DI Box is not going to alter your tone a whole lot.

1. Active DI boxes are typically powered via Phantom Power and not batteries.
2. I would prob never plug directly into a mixer.
3. Buffered pedals (Tuners) are typically for longer cable runs and multiple effects to preserve signal. Active basses rarely (if ever) require a buffer.
4. True Bypass vs. Buffered Is most likely going to be a negligible in the signal chain you are describing.

 

[tothemax]

The Hosa Sidekick is a pretty solid entry level DI (no frills and under $35.00). I like the TC PolyTune, it's a pretty decent tuner pedal, easy to read.

Hosa Sidekick DI​

 

[waveman]

This is what I do Bass -> Tuner (Zoom MS 60B) -> Sansamp BDDI -> amp and/or mixer. Depending on the gig, I may more may not engage the BDDI, but I have that if I feel like I need it. Very situational. Zoom MS 60B has the best visibility on any type of stage. I also have a limiter always on in the Zoom, but that's just me.

But yeah Bass -> Tuner -> DI -> Amp/Mixer.

Some DI's have a tuner out so you could change that up to Bass -> DI -> Mixer/Tuner/Amp

 

[Altitude]

It’s always a good idea to carry around a spare DI just in case. They aren’t very big, heavy, or expensive and a spare can save your bacon or someone else’s on a gig. I have a Radial Tonebone in my bag that has preamp functionality too, but just a simple DI is a great bag addition. The Countryman 85 has been the Honda Accord of DIs for a long time but there are certainly others.

I think your signal chain suggestion is fine.

 

[OneNut]

Many use the tuner as a mute (when you engage the tuner it mutes your signal). Since that doesn't seem to be critical for you (based upon your current setup), you could wire up Bass > DI > Tuner if you're concerned about the tuner affecting your tone (which I personally wouldn't be worried about)

 

[FullumMusic]

Plugging directly into a mixer, even with an active bass, isn't really a great idea. Nothing is gonna break if you do it. It might wind up sounding fine, but it also might send a crap signal, hum, or even some weird interaction between the bass pre and the channel pre. It'll probably work better plugging into a mixer with an Active bass over a passive one, but still not ideal.

Either:
Any Bass -> Tuner -> DI -> Mixer

Or:
Any Bass -> DI -> Mixer

- Do you need to buy one for this show?
To answer a question with a question: Does the venue have DIs? Venues with a proper PA set up and a sound engineer have DIs in the same box as their Mics. I spent decades not owning a DI, and when i showed up at a venue, they stuck a DI between my bass and my amp. When i did live sound, i'd use the bassist's DI if they had one. Otherwise, i'd use one from the venue's supply. If they don't have DIs, having your own would be handy.

Also, if the mixer isn't immediately next to the stage, you'll need to plug into the DI to plug into your channel on the snake. Otherwise you'd have to run an insanely long instrument cable to the mixer, which would cause tone and signal issues, which would mean you'd want to use a DI anyway.

- Do you need to buy one in general in life, or for your own rehearsal PA?
If plugging right into the board works for your rehearsals, then you don't need a DI. If you're happy with it, and the band is happy with it, you can save a few bucks and just keep doing it.

If you're gonna be using that same PA for live shows, i'd recommend getting a DI and using it live (and at rehearsal so that you're doing the same thing at rehearsal as live.) It'll sound better, and will give more flexibility in setup, and will prevent ground issues that might arise when powering the PA at random venues with questionable power, or lighting, or a blender that dims the lights when run.

And having the Tuner is nice because you can mute it. Also it's using the signal your bass is outputting, not the vibrations on the bass, so it's less susceptible to outside vibrations. If you're trying to tune but the guitarists won't stop playing or there's other vibrations happening, the clip on might be less accurate, but the pedal won't. Again, don't need it, but it's a nice thing to have and shouldn't really play into your decision about DI at all.

 

[Wfrance3]

If you like the tone of your bass direct to the board, you could do worse than a Radial JDI

JDI - Passive Direct Box

The JDI is a high performance passive direct box for live concert touring and professional studio recording applications, featuring a premium Jensen transformer for exceptional audio performance.

www.radialeng.com

Many consider that to be the gold standard.
An MXR M81 is a good goto for something more transparent. It has 3 band EQ, input as well as output level control. Also, includes a mid-sweep so you can pick out the mid range freq. you are boosting/cutting. Set flat it's very transparent.
I have one FS in the classifieds. I would still be using it if not the Genzler Magellan I am currently using. That DI has more going on with it and is also a high recommend.
As for a tuner, I have a very old Polytune on the floor. Always reliable. Also easy to read/see in all lighting conditions, except maybe outdoors in direct sunlight. I've been fortunate enough that the few times i've played outdoors I had covering that proved to be sufficient shade for me to see my tuner.
Hope this helps!

 

[LowendG]

Bass>tuner>DI. Easy Peasy.
Any decent passive DI will do just fine for you. You could go for one of the best like a Radial JDI for $250, or you could use a humble Whirlwind IMP-2 for $80. Every working bassist should carry a DI in their kit just in case (even if your amp has one, but that's another discussion...).
Then any decent pedal tuner will do, here as well you don't need a bunch of bells and whistles. One that has True Bypass is great, but not entirely necessary. The 'ol Boss TU tuner doesn't and plenty of players still use those--it's not gonna effect your tone in any measurable way in a live setting. There's a ton of tuners out there, many perfectly good ones well under $100--Boss, Korg, et al.
I know others will disagree, but using a pedal tuner is simply more "pro" than a clip on. It'll mute you while you tune, so you don't have to fiddle with your controls on the bass. It will usually be more accurate. And, clip-on tuners just look kinda amateur (IMHO of course).

 

[bassfran]

I use a Peterson Strobostomp 2 tuner that has a built-in active D.I., so it’s your 1 pedal solution. I’m sure there are others available on the market as well.

 

[Rabidhamster]

Pedal tuner is a must for any gig they’re always too noisy for clip ons to be reliable.

 

[DaveParker39]

Tech 21 Bass Fly Rig. Has all the features you definitely want (tuner, mute, di, buffer, flexible output section), features you may want (compressor, amp sim, speaker sim, some effects), and it's really tiny, portable, and easy to use. Just use what you want and ignore the rest.

 

[The Pendletone]

In our rehearsals, I don't use either. I tune with a clip-on tuner before we start rehearsals and occasionally check again during our breaks. I play an active bass plugged directly into the mixer.

We are talking about possibly having a gig in about 3 months at an office party. There will be a PA system but we don't know yet about it, so I am thinking whether I should get at least an entry-level DI box in case plugging directly into a mixer won't work as expected. At the same time, I think it might be useful to also have a floor tuner stompbox, in case I need adjustments during the gig.

I've asked about DI boxes before, and I think I know that either passive or active DI boxes would be fine with an active bass. I would then prefer passive over active, and if active I would prefer battery-operated over power-supplied, just to have less cables around. My understanding was that any DI box balances an unbalanced signal, but only an active DI box has a low impedance output which is usually what a mixer wants as an input. But with my Ibanez being an active bass, maybe I already have a low impedance output... at least I don't seem to need a DI box with our rehearsal room's mixer.

Reading around on the topic of stompbox tuners, it seems that a lot of people prefer true bypass in the tuner to preserve the instrument's tone. However, it is also said that the drawback of true bypass is losing signal if the output cable is very long (or if there's a lot of other stompboxes in the chain, which isn't my case). The most praised and popular stompbox seems to be the BOSS TU-3, which doesn't have true bypass. If I understand correctly, true bypass means high-impedance output, and 'buffered mode' means low-impedance output. Also in case of tuners, I prefer battery-operated, but I guess this is not directly related to whether they use true bypass or buffered mode.

Now my question is how do I combine these together?

Active Bass -> Tuner -> DI Box -> Mixer

The real question maybe is about if each item in the chain determines whether its own output signal is high or low impedance to the next item in the chain, or if anything up the chain still matters... If I put a true-bypass tuner after my active bass, does it change the low impedance signal of the bass into a high impedance bass, and does it mean the DI Box afterwards needs to be itself an active DI box instead of passive? Should I instead forget about true-bypass and in that case would a passive DI be ok after a tuner in buffered mode?

Edit: I also have a ZOOM B1four with built-in tuner, if I used this then would the output be high-impedance, negating the effect of the active bass? I suppose this pedal doesn't have a true bypass though.

You'll never regret investing in a really good floor tuner, like Polytune or Peterson. A Polytune, especially, might have a switchable buffer in case it's before a longer chain of devices -- but right before a DI it's brilliant just as a mute. Just try to make sure your powered tuner and powered DI have a common power source they agree on -- this will prevent awkward buzzes once set up at the gig.

 

[HolmeBass]

OP unpowered direct boxes also output a balanced low impedance signal.

A powered active DI might have more gain and more fidelity, and more controls/options, but is not necessary in most applications.

 

[Wasnex]

I am thinking whether I should get at least an entry-level DI box in case plugging directly into a mixer won't work as expected.

If sound is provided, contact whoever will be running it to see if they provide a DI. Not a bad idea to have your own DI, but pro sound companies generally prefer to use their own.

In order to plug a bass straight into a mixer, the mixer must have a 1/4" high-Z, instrument input. Most 1/4" mixer inputs are line level, so the signal from most basses is not hot enough. The DI converts the output of your bass from unbalanced to balanced so you can plug into a mic input. Mic level is even lower than instrument level and the mixer channel will have a gain control and most likely a pad for signal level matching.

If the mixer will be a long distance from you, a DI is required to avoid signal degradation. This is about the type of cable as much as the output impedance of your bass or DI. A mic cable is low impedance and balanced to better reject noise. A long high-Z instrument cable will load down the signal, attenuate the highs, and has less ability to reject hum.

My understanding was that any DI box balances an unbalanced signal, but only an active DI box has a low impedance output.

This is not accurate. The transformer in a passive DI converts the signal from high to low impedance.

Reading around on the topic of stompbox tuners, it seems that a lot of people prefer true bypass in the tuner to preserve the instrument's tone. However, it is also said that the drawback of true bypass is losing signal if the output cable is very long (or if there's a lot of other stompboxes in the chain, which isn't my case).

IMHO, the tuner should be run before the DI, so there is no need for the tuner to push a long cable. A single true bypass pedal should not load down the bass significantly. However, a good buffer should not degrade the signal. I use a Boss TU2 and IMHO it works well. You might hear a difference recording, but probably not during live performance. The main difference is true bypass often pops during switching. A buffered pedal should have silent switching. The disadvantage is buffered needs power.

I prefer battery-operated, but I guess this is not directly related to whether they use true bypass or buffered mode.

I would not rely on battery power with a buffered tuner pedal, because if the battery dies the pedal will not pass a signal. It's been a long time since I ran my TU2 buffered, but I remember it going through batteries pretty quickly. The buffer runs all the time, even when not tuning.

I would avoid relying on battery power for the DI as well. DIs have two outputs. The Thru output on most regular DIs is just a parallel connection with the input. So the signal will pass the Thru even if the DI stops working. With an active DI, the XLR out requires power. IMHO it's best to rely on phantom power from the mixer. If a battery dies in the middle of a gig, it's a huge hassle to replace it....had a Countryman Type 85 run the battery down...we just kept playing. Never had a problem with an active DI running on phantom.

IMHO the only time I would consider a battery-powered DI is if the mixer does not have phantom, which should be extremely rare.

The real question maybe is about if each item in the chain determines whether its own output signal is high or low impedance to the next item in the chain, or if anything up the chain still matters... If I put a true-bypass tuner after my active bass, does it change the low impedance signal of the bass into a high impedance bass, and does it mean the DI Box afterwards needs to be itself an active DI box instead of passive? Should I instead forget about true-bypass and in that case would a passive DI be ok after a tuner in buffered mode?

Let me be blunt...the output of an active bass is generally treated as high-Z and instrument level. For the most part the signal is treated as high-Z, unbalanced, and instrument level until the DI converts it to low Z and balanced.

Most common DIs output a mic-level signal although some send line level.

Another possibility could be if you use a preamp that amplifies the signal up to line level.

 

[bigjames]

Now my question is how do I combine these together?

Active Bass -> Tuner -> DI Box -> Mixer

This is exactly how I do it when playing direct into FOH (i.e. no amps on stage). I use a Korg PitchBlack tuner into a Radial Pro passive DI patched to Mixer.

Active DIs use phantom power from the mixer, so not knowing if the mixer supports phantom power, you are better over with a passive IMO. An Active Bass should have high enough output that the active DI is unnecessary anyway in my experience. The Korg has a bypass while tuning, which is handy as well so you can tune in silence between songs / sets as needed.

 

[bigboy_78]

"Office Party" and "there'll be PA"......unless this office is a corporate behemoth like Google or somewhere that regularly has major events, I'd be taking an amp and cab.

 

[AK Bass Guy]

Active bass has a low impedance output so should not need a DI . Wireless dongles the same . Buffered tuner also the same (Boss) . I use a few Triton bigamps for DI purposes with the band . Mostly for piezo guitars and anything else that is new . About the size of a ciggie lighter so can live in the gigbag . Powered by phantom power .

You should always use a DI when going into FOH. Bass output is an unbalanced signal. DI converts unbalanced signal into a balanced signal. While there is much debate over the maximum length of running an unbalanced signal, most generally consider 15’ to 25’ at max. Using a shielded cable might get you a few more feet but at some point you are just making a giant RF antenna.

A balanced signal can run a 100’ or more without issues. So the DI is not only for impedance balancing, it is also there to convert it to balanced signal.