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Changes Question: Scrapple vs. Honeysuckle

Discussion in 'Music [DB]' started by hdiddy, Mar 20, 2005.


  1. hdiddy

    hdiddy Official Forum Flunkee Supporting Member

    Mar 16, 2004
    San Francisco, CA
    Hi guys,

    Just wondering about these two tunes and the way they're "normally" played. They're both slightly different, but I'm wondering if the typical "pro" plays them as they are differentiated in the real books, or do they play it the same way, or is it all mixed up?

    Scrapple From the Apple (Real book) reads:
    Chorus
    Gm7|C7|Gm7|C7
    Fmaj7|Gm7 C7|FMaj7 Gm7|A-7 D7
    Bridge
    A7|A7|D7|D7
    G7|G7|C7|C7

    Honeysuckle Rose (Sher books) reads:
    Chorus
    Gm7 C7|Gm7 C7|Gm7 C7|Gm7 C7
    Fmaj7/Bbm7 C7/Fmaj7 Bb7/Abm7 D7
    Bridge:
    A7|A7|Bb7|Bb7
    G7|G7|C7|C7

    Theorywise from what I can tell, the choruses look like they're chromatically similar, especially if Honeysuckle is played with G-& and C7 one bar per chord like Scrapple.

    The bridges look like it's II V II V vs. a VI II IV I7.

    Is my analysis correct? Thanks!
     
  2. Ed Fuqua

    Ed Fuqua

    Dec 13, 1999
    NYC
    Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
    That HONEYSUCKLE bridge looks funny, my best recollection is that I started on the tonic and have some kind of rising chromatic line.
    I'll call it tomorrow night and see what happens.
     
  3. anonymous0726

    anonymous0726 Guest

    Nov 4, 2001
    F7 | |Bb |
    G7 | |C7 |
     
  4. Ed Fuqua

    Ed Fuqua

    Dec 13, 1999
    NYC
    Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
    Yeah, so at least in the head the line kind of follows the melody F G /Ab A/ Bb C / D C Bb/. etc.
     
  5. hdiddy

    hdiddy Official Forum Flunkee Supporting Member

    Mar 16, 2004
    San Francisco, CA
    Woops, I wrote it wrong. Ray is right.
     
  6. Jim Hall and most people play this with straight Honeysuckle changes. Bird used rhythm changes on the bridge.
     
  7. hdiddy

    hdiddy Official Forum Flunkee Supporting Member

    Mar 16, 2004
    San Francisco, CA
    Thanks Paulo, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. :)

    I'm aware that there's alotta tricks/changes/cut-corners that the general lot of jazz players make to certain tunes that the fake books don't reflect. I'll be asking more of these kinda questions as I go along learning the repetoire.
     
  8. brutuscheezcake

    brutuscheezcake Supporting Member

    Nov 8, 2003
    Bodega Bay
    hey guys,

    when i play scrapple, during my solo i like to quote honeysuckle over both A sections, then use some standard reharmonizations over the bridge (starting on A7), then requote the honeysuckle adding a half step modulation ala bird on the second pass at opening phrase (in the last A section).


    over the bridge i have "stole" a bunch of reharms from dick hyman's take on gershwins changes, then just brought them into the key i need. i re-use at will over any form of changes, in any key.


    here is one

    Am7|Ab7|[Dm7/G7]|Db7|[Gm7/C7]|Gb7|[Cm7/F7]|B7


    thanks!


    simon
     
  9. Just curious....while you're doing this, what does the chordal instrument (Guitar/piano) do? Or, do you hip him/her to all this stuff?
    I always thought jazz was an improvisational art. Sounds like you kinda have this all planned out?
    If I were a pianist/guitarist, I think I would kill you. :D
    I am joking.....
     
  10. brutuscheezcake

    brutuscheezcake Supporting Member

    Nov 8, 2003
    Bodega Bay
    Senor Paulo,

    i am lucky enough to be working with a master musician and a helluva pedagogue.

    when we play duets, i keep my ears wide open, as well as watch for those subtle hints in facial or body movement. we have been playing together 3 years so far so i have a small catalogue subs that we use. he knows my common phrases and the "cheats" (extending out a dominant and such) i am partial to, so he can safely assume what i am attempting. the interplay is fascinating.

    you know, we may use coltranes changes over "the girl from pasadena" at the end of the verses, or we may not. i never really know. i justr hafta listen and be "on the job".

    i have no idea where a song will progress to when we start it. i have to listen and react.

    sometimes is works "less" well, sometimes its magic.

    improvisation doesnt mean un-practiced in this case. its nothing we call.

    and it wouldnt work without prior discussion. 3 years worth. i write it all down...


    doorbell! gotta go, but i will return....



    simon
     
  11. I gotta go to the bathroom...i'll be right back.
     
  12. brutuscheezcake

    brutuscheezcake Supporting Member

    Nov 8, 2003
    Bodega Bay
    now now now

    maybe i shoulda said, i gotta go deal with the DirecTV guys, rather than just answer the doorbell.

    ahhh well....

    maybe some contextual linguistic disambiguation?




    Si Senor, your table is ready!



    hehehehe,


    simon
     
  13. bass_means_LOW

    bass_means_LOW

    Apr 12, 2004
    Las Vegas
    Anybody know if Dick Hyman has any educational materials out? Like his work. Check him out on his collaboration with Major Holley and Slam Stewart on the CD called "Shut Yo Mouth," I think on the Delios label.
    I can see knowingly having an assortment of alternate changes to blow over as a learning tool or in a band setting. In a freelance setting that's where it stops for me as one guy can't assume that the next cat whom he freelances with on that harmonic level is going to or will be able to go along with the 'nouveau' changes. The pianist or guitarist probably has his own thang going on. There are many ways a bassist can hook himself up with the harmonic instrument in that musically collaborative zone.
     
  14. Ed Fuqua

    Ed Fuqua

    Dec 13, 1999
    NYC
    Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
    Doesn't he have a book of re-harms for standards out? I'm almost positive.
     
  15. brutuscheezcake

    brutuscheezcake Supporting Member

    Nov 8, 2003
    Bodega Bay
    hey guys,

    dick hyman has a very book out there on reharms and subs. i borrowed it a while back. thats where i got the scrapple bridge stuff. offa his changes bridge.

    the name?

    Dick Hyman's Professional Chord Changes and Substitutions for 100 Tunes Every Musician Should Know

    subs and reharms are not something i would do out on a casual where i did not know everybody, well maybe on my solo i would....



    simon
     
  16. nypiano

    nypiano

    Feb 10, 2003
    NYC
    Yeah with a name like Dick Hyman..
    f**ing around with changes is unavoidable

    No it's not a new ky jelly commercial.. :bag:
     
  17. People always get Dick Hyman confused with my piano playing buddy Dick Hindman.
    I played a bunch of those Jazz Parties with Dick Hyman....he specializes in organ playing, but not that typical B3 organ trio stuff. He loves those old movie theatre organs. I think he even made some recordings on one.
     
  18. Ed Fuqua

    Ed Fuqua

    Dec 13, 1999
    NYC
    Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
    Dick Hyman, organ playing... I feel like I've stumbled into a Beavis & Butthead episode...
     
  19. Yep...pretty classy huh?
     
  20. Damon Rondeau

    Damon Rondeau Journeyman Clam Artist Supporting Member

    Nov 19, 2002
    Winnipeg, baby
    Fats Waller and Basie used to play movie theatre and church organs, too, for kicks and for bucks. Apparently Fats killed at that stuff. I've never really heard much of it, I realize. This record looks pretty good.

    Hey, it's not like Fats is off-topic in this thread.