Double Bass changing D&G

[Edvin]

I would like to have a string that sounds just like my obligato but with lower tension and the same gauge,
because my bass is good for a little less tension.
Solo tuning is a little tempting, but is there anyone who compared obligato (or some other brands)
string model between solo and orchester, alternatively weich and the original tension.
In other case, does someone have any suggestion of a
string with similar gauge and sound as obligato, but with
a little bit less tension? I play pretty hard (i love the fingerboard snap with pizz)
and like strings about 10mm(G) to 12mm(E) but it's a bit to stiff on the oblis.
I'm thinking about Olivs on D&G but i don't want the sound too dark.
another question: I now have full set Obligato but i'm
going to change the E&A for spiro mittels.
will it have any effect on the tension on G&D Oblis?

 

[TroyK]

I now have full set Obligato but i'm
going to change the E&A for spiro mittels.
will it have any effect on the tension on G&D Oblis?

Yes, it will, hard to say how much, but I've experimented enough to be certain that it will. And it makes sense if you think about it. Each each string has a tension rating, but the set has a cumulative tension as well. Spiro Mittels have more tension and feel stiffer than Obligatos and it will raise your total tension and change the characteristic of the D and G, if you stick with the same strings. Might be great, might not. If you're commited to the Spiro on E and A, you might do that first and then see how you feel about the D and G. Certainly you wouldn't be the first to use Spiro, Spiro, Obli, Obli

As for alternatives, someone will say "Evah Pirazzi Weichs" because we as a forum have Evah Pirazzi Terrets Syndrome these days. Arguably good strings, but not lower in tension than Obligatos. There are some obvious similar strings (Innovations, Kolstein Heritage, etc), but I don't have enough experience with them to compare tension. There is a tension chart, but not everything is on it, you can check.

You might read about Thomastik Dominant Solos. Someone was doing that a while back. Regular Doms would at least feel higher in tension than Obligatos, but the solos might be a good choice.

And Velvets come to mind. Probably Animas if you want to keep things bright. Velvet Blues are cheaper, but similar, you might read about them and see if it sounds like something to try.
With Velvets, though. I'd start with the whole set and go from there. They're well balanced with themselves, but may not match as well with other strings.

OLIVs are great if you like that sound, can afford them and don't mind the risk of failure. Especially the G is considered almost perfect.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Get Solo Obligatos and tune them down to orchestral tuning (you can simulate the tension you will get by downtuning your current set by a whole tone). I don't think any other string will sound as similar.
I'm afraid the Spiro Mittel have too much tension compared to the downtuned Solos. I think Spiro Weich (or downtuned Spiro Solos) will fit better to the downtuned Obligato Solos.
I think the downtuned Solo strings will work better on your bass setup (10 to 12 mm) than the normal ones.
BTW, personally I dislike Obligatos because they are so stiff.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Innovation 140H (Honeys) also have a solid core like the Obligatos but sounds rather different more like gut than Steel/Obligato. They have much less tension than the Obligatos but a really different sound. Better use them as a set than with Spiros.
For me they have too less tension, but basses and taste differs.
Velvets might be a solution but also rather different in sound. The one closest to the Obligato/Spiro is the Compas 180. I like the one Compas 180 string I have tried. But a lot more expensive than the other choices.

 

[Edvin]

thank's for your quick answers! I've had a set of animas on, but they were waaay to dark so i took them off after ca two months.
Does anybody have any experience with the zyex strings? I love the sound of this:
Matthias Pichler on Zyex Bass Strings - YouTube
I could definately lower my string height (to lower tension) of it has this clarity and brightness! It might the bass though.

 

[John Chambliss]

I toy around with different setups. Right now I have Spiro Weichs E/A and Velvet Blues D/G. Only been practicing with them and feels nice. Need to gig with them though.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

If Animas are too dark I would say either downtuned solo Obligato and/or Spiro, Innovation 140B (if normal tension is too much: downtuned solos) with SpiroWeich A and E (with downtuned 140B solos: downtuned Spiro solos A and E) or Velvet Compas 180 (I think they are the brightest of the Velvets). I never played the Zyex because I need sets with a high C which they don't make.
Evah Pirazzi (normal or Weich) would be too dark for you.

 

[Edvin]

If Animas are too dark I would say either downtuned solo Obligato and/or Spiro, Innovation 140B (if normal tension is too much: downtuned solos) with SpiroWeich A and E (with downtuned 140B solos: downtuned Spiro solos A and E) or Velvet Compas 180 (I think they are the brightest of the Velvets). I never played the Zyex because I need sets with a high C which they don't make.
Evah Pirazzi (normal or Weich) would be too dark for you.

okay, sounds nice. But the thing i'm worried about is the volume. I play exclusivly acoustic and nearly always with drummer and obligatos work fine if they are set up the way they are. I can't lower my volume. Is it any idea too look for lower tension strings anyway?

 

[TroyK]

I can't lower my volume. Is it any idea too look for lower tension strings anyway?

Depends on your bass. Sorry. My bass speaks up under less tension, others need tension to move the table. You'll have to experiment.

You could tune your current set down a whole step and see what you perceive the change in volume/presence to be.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The Compas 180 sounds rather loud for the relatively low tension. So even if your bass might need a bit less tension it can only get better. If the normal Compas 180 has too much tension for you (I don't think so) there is still the Compas 180 SUIT with less tension (but a little bit less volume). From all strings I have tested (about 15, high C only!) the Compas 180 is the loudest lower tension string (in the ear of the player). You have to mount them in a very special way that takes more time and patience than other strings, at least the first few times. If you don't care about they most likely will break, but it's your fault then. Broken strings will be replaced quickly by the manufacturer during the first year after you bought them.
The Evah Pirazzi (Weich) is also loud (or could be played loudly) but dark in sound.

Generally with lower tension you get less volume in my experience. But my bass can work with high tension strings, so this is more or less true for my instrument. Other instruments can be choked by the pressure on the top with high tension strings, so my general rule only works for strings below the choking limit. The string angle at the bridge has a major part of the tension -> pressure relationship, the higher the angle the higher the pressure with the same string tension. So lowering the action can make things better on these basses.

Sometimes strings are not louder only seem to be louder to the player because the sound radiation at the neck is better than with other strings. Good for correcting intonation in a loud context but not neccessarily louder for the public.
Sometimes the bass will shine better through the rest of the band with a certain sound spectrum. Since the bass usually is the lowest instrument in the band a strong fundamental shines through the whole band but is harder to hear for intonation and may give a weaker sound for soloing.
So we need to make compromises and think of what we play and which string will do it best.

BTW, be prepared to widen your nut and bridge sluts (or go to a luther for that) if you try out new strings. If you don't your strings or the windings may break. And remember that this is not reversable, you need a new nut and probably also a new bridge for thinner strings after you have done that.

 

[Edvin]

TroyK and DoubleMIDI, thank you very very much for your answers and help to my way in finding the perfect setup and string. I will think about this for a day or so and get back to you. Right now i'm kind of in the "mood" for Spirocore mittel E&A with Oliv D&G because i got that combination recommended and heard it from swedish Martin Sjöstedt and it sounded marvelous. The tension problem could sometimes be a bit in my head and physics as well, as i have been thinking of raising the tension like two months ago (same setup). I'll give this some time before i decide. I won't change strings until christmas when i get home to my parents and give the bass to luthier Nicklas Berglund, and i thought of giving him a call. A fingerboard grind (do you call it that?) might be a good help too. I might as well go with spiro E&A with oblis D&G and not be afraid of the problem of hearing pitch clear with gut strings.

 

[TroyK]

Spiro/OLIV is a great combination. Hopefully you've read about durability issues with the OLIV. Not everyone experiences them, but they're expensive, so be informed.

You know, a good set up can change how your bass feels more than just taking tension up and down with strings. That was a very expensive lesson that took me too many years to learn. If you have a chance to bond with a good luthier who can help you find what you're looking for in your bass, it's a good thing to do.

But, I'm still guilty of experimenting with strings now and again.

 

[Edvin]

You know, a good set up can change how your bass feels more than just taking tension up and down with strings. That was a very expensive lesson that took me too many years to learn. If you have a chance to bond with a good luthier who can help you find what you're looking for in your bass, it's a good thing to do.

But, I'm still guilty of experimenting with strings now and again.

Ye i'm kind of in that mood now, cause i think that a setup might be an answer because my bass can be wonderful the other day and make me cry of anxiety another. So,
1.fingers
2.setup
3.strings
is the priority right now.
but the question remains:
WHAT STRiNGS??

 

[DoubleMIDI]

For the setup question:
Go to a luthier, explain your problems, tell him what you might want to try and discuss with him if the setup needs to be changed with the strings you use or if different strings might do the job better (probably with some setup too). You can talk with him about our suggestions (but luthiers often know a smaller subset of the available double bass strings, they cannot know all over 100 types) and come to a conclusion what makes most sense to try first and perhaps what to try after if this doesn't solve your problem.
Also try a few other basses if the luthier has some to test to check other setups, strings and what happens to your playing with them. It is not always possible to translate that to your bass but at least you get some impression what it means to have a lower setup or how strings certain strings sound.
The best way is trying as many basses and strings you can find by using other peoples basses for a short time to get an impression what could be a good way to try. Otherwise your experience can either get very expensive or frustrating (or both).

Sometimes you can get some free sample strings but it would be good to know what you might want to try before you decide which free set to ask for (usually only one per maufacturer and you need to be lucky). Maybe you want to buy a few cheaper commonly used strings first to get an impression about the route to go. Probably used to get them cheaper.

 

[TroyK]

Totally agree. And, that said, for what it's worth, I wouldn't try OLIVs right now if you're not really dialed in on what you're going for. They're expensive, they're potentially problematic in terms of the windings. They're great strings, but I wouldn't take either the risk or the expense unless I felt that my bass was set up as I wanted it and I had tried enough cheaper, more stable strings to feel like I knew exactly what I was ready for and it was OLIVs.

Up date your profile, let us know where you are and we'll help you find a luthier.

As for strings, you started out with a direct question "I'm thinking of trying x, will it y?" and we've kind of (uncharastically) stuck to responding to that question. If it's a wide open string search, let's start over:

You're using Obligatos. What is is it that you do/don't like about them? What are you wanting to hear and feel that is making you want to experiment? Are you in an orchestra? Are you playing jazz? Both?

The direct, limited questions get a better response because 3 new people a week post "Hey, what are the best strings?" and we all tell them to do a search (And alternately shout "Spirocores!" "Evah Pirazzis!" "Gut!" at them, which is actually less helpful than directing them to a search. But, we may need to back up with you, if you're trying to plan for your next set of strings.

Agree with everything said about luthiers. It's really helpful to be working with one when you start string experimenting. You don't want to throw money and heartache at strings if what you're trying to improve is really a $45 setup issue. Also agree that most luthier arent' string geeks like the rest of us, so they may have some limited advice for you. In fairness, though the reason they aren't is likely because we see the strings, they see the instrument.

That and they don't necessarily play. Looking at and handling strings on a bass when you're setting it up doesn't really tell you much about what it's like to live with them.

 

[Edvin]

you give me so much to think about, thank you again for your answers!
I will take the take-it-slow-in-the-jungle suggestion and go back on the obligatos. The strings that are on right now though, is dead and been hurt by the bass's bridge who is in a really bad shape. I had animas before and when i changed back to obligatos the strings dug in to the bridge so every string is too deep. I don't know what you think, but that might be a huge thing for the sound as well. The main issue to fix by the luthier is take a look at the bridge and maybe replace it because the former owner had wilson pickups so you can't carve it down due to the risk of cracking.
The thing i like about Obligatos is the clarity of a steel string but yet the touch of a drier old school tone, the slightly higher gauge, the excellent arco (i play 60/40 pizz/arco) and the nice tension compared to a spirocore. I mainly want to feel a string that is giving me the chance to dig in deeper and play through the string more. When i lower the height i play through the string too much and kind of killing the sustain which is causing a lower volume that i can't live with when i play full acousticly jazz with drummer (i'm studying jazz full time) and when i raise the height it sounds wonderful but i can't really dig in to the tone like i can with the lower tension (string height). I'm studying jazz full time so i play with a lot of different people and constellations from duo with song to full big band. I practice classical repertoire a lot (bach, bottesini etc.) but not with an orchestra as it is now. I hope you can get a vague understanding to my musical position. I will read and answer you quickly if there's anything more you need to know from me. Again, thank you both a lot! You've really made me think rational about my situation.

EDIT: I'm still in the feeling of getting spirocores for E&A. I have a used set in good shape to buy from my teacher for like 40$ so i'm planning to buy them with new D&G and complete the obligato set if it turns out to stiff. Is that a bad idea you think? The thing i want from E&A is a bit stiffer feel and more punch, but i don't want it to stiff up the D&G too much though..

 

[TroyK]

Actually, it sounds like a pretty good plan. I haven't tried Spiros/Oblis, but a lot of people do that. I'm going to see my favorite luthier next month and try a few things, including Jazzers E&A over Obligatos D&G. Similar set up, you should go for the spirocores from your teacher. That mix has a good chance of solving your "right string height" puzzle too. Try it and see...but..

Yeah, get that bridge fixed/replaced.

1) a ton of your sound comes from there and it's really worth the attention.

2) Obligatos and especially strings like OLIVs need a nice, smooth fit, through well-lubricated slots to live and survive. If not, the windings can seperate from the cores and start to do bad things.

Get it attended to, before putting new Obligatos on. The Spirocores will most likely be fine before or after.

Sounds like you've got a plan at this point. There are certainly a dozen similar things you could try, but none of them are going to be a safer bet than this. Get the bridge fixed, try this string set up and let us know in 4-6 months how it sits with you.

 

[Edvin]

Actually, it sounds like a pretty good plan. I haven't tried Spiros/Oblis, but a lot of people do that. I'm going to see my favorite luthier next month and try a few things, including Jazzers E&A over Obligatos D&G. Similar set up, you should go for the spirocores from your teacher. That mix has a good chance of solving your "right string height" puzzle too. Try it and see...but..

Yeah, get that bridge fixed/replaced.

1) a ton of your sound comes from there and it's really worth the attention.

2) Obligatos and especially strings like OLIVs need a nice, smooth fit, through well-lubricated slots to live and survive. If not, the windings can seperate from the cores and start to do bad things.

Get it attended to, before putting new Obligatos on. The Spirocores will most likely be fine before or after.

Sounds like you've got a plan at this point. There are certainly a dozen similar things you could try, but none of them are going to be a safer bet than this. Get the bridge fixed, try this string set up and let us know in 4-6 months how it sits with you.

Yeah, i got a plan. The plan i had from the beginning I think i always will get back to obligatos. I wen from obligatos to dominants, to velvet animas, to obligatos again and was then happy as a little kid on christmas. I'm pretty sure i will like spiros on the upper ones though.
I'll come back at you and tell you how it sounds. I'll post a video/sound clip before and after as well.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

First, I second any advise you got from TroyK. I was too lazy to write that myself. Thanks a lot TroyK!

Second, as a jazz player it is always good to own a set of Spirocore, Mittel or Weich (or both). Sometimes you want to check out how a certain set sounds with a low Spiro E or E and A. I did this a few weeks ago with my Innovation 140B set and like this combination rather well.

If I wouldn't play a fifth high C string I could live with a complete Spiro Mittel or Weich set. But the Spiro Mittel high C is too thin and has too much tension to play it in thump position (the Weich is a bit better), at least on my 4/4 bass. So I was looking for a thicker string myself, also mostly but not exclusively for jazz. A thicker string for high C, G and probably D is fine, but if you get thick strings on the lower end you may loose sustain. Thats the reason why I'm using Spiro Weich E and A (Mittel have too much tension in comparison) with the Innovation 140B.
I'm still waiting for the Velvet Compas 180 set to arrive, but I like the high C I already got but was also looking for an alternative that is a bit cheaper. (I think it is always a good idea to know an alternative set that is also nice to play.)
I don't want to push you towards the Compas 180, but I think they may fit your needs very well. The action can be rather low like with Spiros, they are just a bit thicker than Spirocores. But you have to care about them a bit more than with Spiros. The windings are very thin. This makes the string soft to the left hand but also delicate in handling. They have a lot of pizz power, may be a bit direct bowed (more than dedicated arco strings) but you can get used to that sound. (You will stand out arco like a soloist with them, so not the best to mix with other basses in a professional orchestra.)

If you mix different strings you might find that you need a different way of bowing for them, a bit annoying at the beginning.

Take it slowly as you said and go step by step. I think I'm in the second year of string search now, bought about ten different single string and four sets and see some light for me now. Since you don't need a high C and got some good advice, it may take you there a bit quicker, but I learned that I need to play strings at least six weeks before I decide to keep them or not. (Double or quadruple this time with new Spiro Mittels.) I also broke or damaged four or five strings yet.

Good luck with your string search!

 

[Edvin]

First, I second any advise you got from TroyK. I was too lazy to write that myself. Thanks a lot TroyK!

Second, as a jazz player it is always good to own a set of Spirocore, Mittel or Weich (or both). Sometimes you want to check out how a certain set sounds with a low Spiro E or E and A. I did this a few weeks ago with my Innovation 140B set and like this combination rather well.

If I wouldn't play a fifth high C string I could live with a complete Spiro Mittel or Weich set. But the Spiro Mittel high C is too thin and has too much tension to play it in thump position (the Weich is a bit better), at least on my 4/4 bass. So I was looking for a thicker string myself, also mostly but not exclusively for jazz. A thicker string for high C, G and probably D is fine, but if you get thick strings on the lower end you may loose sustain. Thats the reason why I'm using Spiro Weich E and A (Mittel have too much tension in comparison) with the Innovation 140B.
I'm still waiting for the Velvet Compas 180 set to arrive, but I like the high C I already got but was also looking for an alternative that is a bit cheaper. (I think it is always a good idea to know an alternative set that is also nice to play.)
I don't want to push you towards the Compas 180, but I think they may fit your needs very well. The action can be rather low like with Spiros, they are just a bit thicker than Spirocores. But you have to care about them a bit more than with Spiros. The windings are very thin. This makes the string soft to the left hand but also delicate in handling. They have a lot of pizz power, may be a bit direct bowed (more than dedicated arco strings) but you can get used to that sound. (You will stand out arco like a soloist with them, so not the best to mix with other basses in a professional orchestra.)

If you mix different strings you might find that you need a different way of bowing for them, a bit annoying at the beginning.

Take it slowly as you said and go step by step. I think I'm in the second year of string search now, bought about ten different single string and four sets and see some light for me now. Since you don't need a high C and got some good advice, it may take you there a bit quicker, but I learned that I need to play strings at least six weeks before I decide to keep them or not. (Double or quadruple this time with new Spiro Mittels.) I also broke or damaged four or five strings yet.

Good luck with your string search!

thank you for the info and advices.
I couple of months ago i was kind of in to a set of compass 180 and sent a mail to nuno. I hope he doesn't mind i copy the mail he sent me:

From me to Nuno at Velvet strings:
Hello!
I have question regarding your Double bass string Velvet 180 and was wondering how bright the sound is. I want a bright string,
kind of in the class of Obligato or more but with Less Tension and more clear harmonics.
I bought a set of Animas from you earlier but the sound from that was way to deep and the harmonics didn't work out for me at all. Could you compare the compass 180 to Obligatos in brilliance, tension and Bow response?
//Edvin, Sweden

Nunos answer:
Dear Edvin:
Thanks for the email, regarding your question, the compas 180 are not a bright string at all, so i dont think they will be a good solution for you, the Blue are the brightest Velvet String, they have 25 kgs tension per string.. About the bow response, i cant talk about Obligatos since i never played them, but the Blue have a copper winding, how was the bowing with the Animas for you?
If you can bow Animas, it will be easier to bow the Blue... Some people love to bow the Blue and they say they are easy to bow, others find the copper windings hard.. That only you can tell
Best regards and i wish i was of some help.


Nuno Alexandre
Velvet Strings Customer Support