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Double Bass Charlie Haden's Vuillaume
- Thread starter smythe5
- Start date
So does that mean that Charlie is playing a Kay on Shape of Jazz to Come, Change of the Century etc.?
Reggie Workman has a Prescott that he bought from Charlie soon after those Ornette records were made. So I assume Charlie was playing his Prescott on those recordings. I'm fairly certain the Charlie played the Prescott on everything from 59 through 61 (Shape of Jazz through Ornette!) I could be wrong though!
- Dec 13, 1999
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- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
Charlie wasn't on the first studio recordings that Ornette did in California, that was Don Payne, Percy Heath or Red Mitchell. He was in LA in early 57, SHAPE OF JAZZ wasn't recorded until May of 59, CHANGE in October of that year. Couple of years on the scene is plenty of time to grab a new bass...particularly given that he was rooming with Scotty during that time, and Scotty had his Prescott then.
I got to play Charlie’s Haden’s Vuillaume today at Robertson’s in Albuquerque! I felt the presence of jazz royalty in my hands. Price was well north of 500K. I also got to play an early 1700’s Italian bass, selling for a paltry 270K. The people at Robertson’s could not have been nicer; leaving me alone in a room full of expensive basses to play to my heart’s content. Don Robertson took time out from his busy day to hang out with me and talk basses, strings, etc. Definitely worth a visit if you’re in the area, and if you’re shopping for a bass, he’s got an amazing inventory, from Shens to Vuillaume!
I’ll go out on a limb here and say that I’m sorry to see the Vuillaume priced so high. How can anyone afford that unless they are funded by a corporation and/or are simply buying it as an investment property. Basses have gone up radically in the last 5 years which is sad to see. Charlie bought that bass because he could afford it, and it helped him change history. Access to the highest quality instruments is necessary to reach the highest levels of expression in art. Edgar’s Gabrielli is an essential part of his artistry and development. Business is business but one would like to see bass dealers play a responsible role in the development of the art of double bass playing, for the love of the instrument, above the lure of making a ton of money off bass sales. Perhaps I’m just completely unrealistic, in fact I know I am, but in the case of the Vuillaume, and the history of the man who played that instrument, the philosophy behind the man, an astronomical price tag that almost guarantees the silencing of that voice is very disappointing. I feel the same about the Lefaro Prescott leaning up alone in a dark vault at Kolsteins. Don’t flame me now, it’s just my opinion and I’ve been to Robertson’s and they are good guys out there, in the business of selling instruments, and have a right to run their affairs as they see fit.
I agree with the sentiment here, I especially agree that any great bassist who develops anything with detail and complexity (in this case the detail and complexity of just a few notes) does so in co-operation with an instrument with character. Anything I can get out of my travel bass has to to with decades of work with my old bass.
It is reasonable to despair about the high prices of instruments like this, but, there are quality instruments to be had at amazing prices as well.
One view I take on the high prices of visual art is that it is the only thing that gives our money any value! I'd say the same with this - if any instrument should be expensive, it is this one!
A donor should really get it for a an organization like SFJAZZ or Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra (as many problems as one can find with such an organization aside), to be played by guest bassists.
Lastly, it is important to keep our eyes open about the dealers and luthiers out there. Most DO love the instrument, but, they are also in the business of making money off those who play it.
It is reasonable to despair about the high prices of instruments like this, but, there are quality instruments to be had at amazing prices as well.
One view I take on the high prices of visual art is that it is the only thing that gives our money any value! I'd say the same with this - if any instrument should be expensive, it is this one!
A donor should really get it for a an organization like SFJAZZ or Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra (as many problems as one can find with such an organization aside), to be played by guest bassists.
Lastly, it is important to keep our eyes open about the dealers and luthiers out there. Most DO love the instrument, but, they are also in the business of making money off those who play it.
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- Oct 12, 2004
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- Disclosures
- Retailer: Shen, Sun, older European
The historical valuation of a celebrity owned instrument is in a completely separate category than a fine performance bass priced for the maker, condition, and voice. A fine French bass from the first half of the 19th century can be magical.
The word I heard was that it is Charlie’s estate that is involved in setting the price on the bass. I don’t believe that was entirely Robertson’s idea.
As someone who has dabbled with a modest collection of them, I'd observe that there are lots of ways to look at vintage instruments and their prices. Just about every type of vintage instrument has thousands of players and thousands of collectors who would love to have them. Vintage and condition by themselves are important pricing criteria, but then if the instrument was owned and played by a prominent artist, especially if it was also played on notable recordings, provenance comes into play, and the value goes up exponentially.
I'd think in the case of Charlie Haden's Vuillaume that Robertson's is pricing based on vintage, condition, collectability and provenance, and on how much business and notoriety just having the instrument in house lends to their establishment. I'd bet that at least some of their business happens because that instrument, and other similarly notable instruments, are there to be seen and even played. I wouldn't be surprised if Robertson's, for good reason, is not at all anxious for this instrument to leave their establishment, and they may have priced it accordingly. For that matter, the Charlie Haden Vuillaume is undoubtedly being played more at Roberrtson's than it would be played in a museum.
I'd think in the case of Charlie Haden's Vuillaume that Robertson's is pricing based on vintage, condition, collectability and provenance, and on how much business and notoriety just having the instrument in house lends to their establishment. I'd bet that at least some of their business happens because that instrument, and other similarly notable instruments, are there to be seen and even played. I wouldn't be surprised if Robertson's, for good reason, is not at all anxious for this instrument to leave their establishment, and they may have priced it accordingly. For that matter, the Charlie Haden Vuillaume is undoubtedly being played more at Roberrtson's than it would be played in a museum.
Very true, However, (not to take anything away from Haden) we've all heard the open D on this thing enough to know it is an extraordinary instrument!
I'm going to go out on a limb here. The bass has been for sale for 18 months with no takers. My guess is that it will stay unsold for a very long while at this price. No offence intended to the legacy of Charlie Haden.
I never meant my post to devolve into a discussion of the pricing of historically significant instruments. It was supposed to be about the connection I felt to an important bassist through putting my hands on his gorgeous instrument for 15 minutes, and a shout out to Don Robertson for his generosity in allowing me to play it and hanging out with me. Wish I hadn’t posted the asking price. I don’t really have an opinion regarding the asking price. It’s possible that selling it is not the primary goal here, as some have suggested. It certainly was not prominently displayed in its own climate controlled display case; just in a rack amongst a room full of other basses of varying prices and vintages, without any identifying tag on it. I never would have known about it if I hadn’t seen a list of basses and their prices on a single sheet of paper taped to a window in the room. The bass was identified as “19th. century Vuillaume - The Haden” with a price of “inquire.” At the end of the day, after a thoroughly enjoyable hour playing a variety of basses I’ll never be able to afford, I came away with the sound and feel of my mid-1800’s Tyrolean still in my ears and hands.
Well, that would be my fault. But I think that’s what a forum is about, free discussions that flow unhindered like a good improvisation. It’s delicate because I’m actually not trying to shade Robertson’s though I may not have walked carefully enough (these are the days of offending). They are profession instrument dealers and know far more about that business than I ever could. I was more lamenting the untouchability of an instrument that I love. Crying in my beer I suppose. Not pretty but real.
From what I understand, this "Vuillaume" is a shop made bass (whether his or others) and Vuillaume didn't make basses himself. If true, this bass has something in common with other trade instruments, like Juzek, Morelli, etc contracted to a shop, like Wilfer, Hofner, etc.
A $500k price tag is pretty crazy, IMO. Charlie made his lionhead Pollmann sound great, too. How much would someone pay for that now?
A $500k price tag is pretty crazy, IMO. Charlie made his lionhead Pollmann sound great, too. How much would someone pay for that now?
I hear Jeff Bezos is looking for a bass...
I hear Jeff Bezos' ex-wife is looking for a bass...
Agreed.
A $500K price tag will ensure that nobody ever gets to own this bass...Whoever "came up" with this number should be ashamed of themselves.
Thanks.
