Double Bass Cheval for French bow?

[crd]

Does anyone here have any experience buying a bow that needs a cheval? What does this type of work normally run? Can it change how the bow responds? I am looking at a bow that sounds and plays great but has so much ear on the side of the frog that it needs work to make sure a break won't develop. I know it would make more sense to just buy a bow that doesn't require any work but this one feels and plays great.

 

[Jon Stefaniak]

Does anyone here have any experience buying a bow that needs a cheval? What does this type of work normally run? Can it change how the bow responds? I am looking at a bow that sounds and plays great but has so much ear on the side of the frog that it needs work to make sure a break won't develop. I know it would make more sense to just buy a bow that doesn't require any work but this one feels and plays great.

Sorry, but i am a little confused by some of the words you chose in your post.
cheval - I guess you mean horsehair
Ear- I guess you mean hair
Break, break wont develop - ? Is the bow bending? Cracked or otherwise damaged? Rubbing on the string?

Rehairing a bow is a normal bit of maintenance usually done at least once a year when needed - if the hair is uneven, you should get it rehaired. Rehairing can change how the bow plays depending on hair length, amount, distribution and elasticity. A good rehair will improve the sound your bow draws.

I hope this is helpful

 

[crd]

Sorry, but i am a little confused by some of the words you chose in your post.
cheval - I guess you mean horsehair
Ear- I guess you mean hair
Break, break wont develop - ? Is the bow bending? Cracked or otherwise damaged? Rubbing on the string?

Rehairing a bow is a normal bit of maintenance usually done at least once a year when needed - if the hair is uneven, you should get it rehaired. Rehairing can change how the bow plays depending on hair length, amount, distribution and elasticity. A good rehair will improve the sound your bow draws.

I hope this is helpful

I am talking about grafting wood on the frog to make it fit the stick better*. There is a lot of wear on the frog so doesn't fit the stick perfectly. The frog isn't loose but I think overtime it will damage the stick under tension left as it is now. I believe this type of repair is commonly referred to as a cheval ? It is a special bow by a historic maker but it has seen some damage and I think the frog is not original.

I have no experience with this kind of repair and am mostly concerned that the bow will no longer play or sound the same. I have zero interest in having an old bow but just fell in love with the way this one feels and plays.

* I have no idea what the actual process is but I have a feeling it's a pita.

 

[Jon Stefaniak]

Oh, wow... I feel stupid for not knowing the word. A quick google search would have been enough. Sorry for wasting your time

Lynn Hannings lists this repair on her website for $400 and a "half cheval" is $200. So i guess depending on the extent of the repair, cost might vary.
Find a good bow maker to do this.

I don't know how bad the fit is on your bow, but you are right that you don't want a loose-fitting frog wearing the stick.

I guess you can't know if the sound will change unless you do it - I don't think having the frog fit better could hurt the sound or playing. I love the fit of a new bow - feels more secure and functional.
I did try an old bow a couple years ago where the frog fit pretty badly, but the bow sounded great, I don't think it is the reason.

 

[crd]

Oh, wow... I feel stupid for not knowing the word. A quick google search would have been enough. Sorry for wasting your time

Lynn Hannings lists this repair on her website for $400 and a "half cheval" is $200. So i guess depending on the extent of the repair, cost might vary.
Find a good bow maker to do this.

I don't know how bad the fit is on your bow, but you are right that you don't want a loose-fitting frog wearing the stick.

I guess you can't know if the sound will change unless you do it - I don't think having the frog fit better could hurt the sound or playing. I love the fit of a new bow - feels more secure and functional.
I did try an old bow a couple years ago where the frog fit pretty badly, but the bow sounded great, I don't think it is the reason.

No problem! I had no idea what it was until a couple days ago either. I've decided to really explore new makers before I pull the trigger on any bow that needs work. Shopping for a new bow is almost as much of a time suck as strings... I've never let myself explore any nice bows before and have gotten by on a student stick for the last 15 years. It is incredible the difference and variation in bows on one's playing.

 

[slappahdabass]

Frog imo only really affects feel and aesthetics and not sound or response.
I've had similar work done by Julie Vinsant with a previous old bow and it went fine and caused no issues. Julie does really great work, as do Lynn Hannings and Sue Lipkins if you can get in with her.

 

[MikeCanada]

If it is down at the bottom by the pearl slide, typically on the audience/floor side of the bow you can get finger wear from rubbing against the frog and add wood. You can also have chips/damage on either side. Those repairs are aesthetic. If you are missing a significant chunk and replace it you might notice a slight weight difference, but unless something else has been altered about the bow because of the missing weight, it should be going back towards what the maker intended anyway. The bow should sound/play the same, and with careful wood selection and good tool skills, the new wood blends in well.

If it's at the "top" by the underslide, the execution of the repair is far more critical, and it is a structural repair. Because the frog and the stick come together at this point and the underslide is there to protect the fragile edges of the ebony, usually a cheval on this side means there are issues with alignment. If the underslide is a good fit, it can be reused and you just have to get the wood right. If the underslide is damaged or also does not fit, then a new underslide has to be made to match the stick and make everything stable. Creating an underslide to fit an existing bow (when you are not the original maker with the original tooling) can be complex as the angles/width are different for a lot of makers. You could also need bushings for the stick or the frog if there were alignment issues that brought you to a cheval in the first place.

If the frog is not original to the stick, there is a good chance that the three facets of the octagon on the stick that meet the three facets in the frog are not the same. Many sticks are not perfect octagons with 45° angles everywhere, especially with older bows. This is where the structural/mechanical part of the repair comes in, because if the angles of the stick are 42° but the frog is 45°, then only the bottom facet and the eyelet are providing any lateral stability, and if the frog is 42° and the stick is 45°, then only the tops of the rails are pinching the stick and you're looking at thumb projection cracks and stability issues too.

If you have a shop/bow restorer around that does this kind of work and you are interested in the bow, I would consider it, but I would find that person first before committing to the bow. Not every shop/maker will take on that kind of a project, and if you aren't around someone who can do it, then the logistics becomes more of an issue than the actual repair.

 

[crd]

If it is down at the bottom by the pearl slide, typically on the audience/floor side of the bow you can get finger wear from rubbing against the frog and add wood. You can also have chips/damage on either side. Those repairs are aesthetic. If you are missing a significant chunk and replace it you might notice a slight weight difference, but unless something else has been altered about the bow because of the missing weight, it should be going back towards what the maker intended anyway. The bow should sound/play the same, and with careful wood selection and good tool skills, the new wood blends in well.

If it's at the "top" by the underslide, the execution of the repair is far more critical, and it is a structural repair. Because the frog and the stick come together at this point and the underslide is there to protect the fragile edges of the ebony, usually a cheval on this side means there are issues with alignment. If the underslide is a good fit, it can be reused and you just have to get the wood right. If the underslide is damaged or also does not fit, then a new underslide has to be made to match the stick and make everything stable. Creating an underslide to fit an existing bow (when you are not the original maker with the original tooling) can be complex as the angles/width are different for a lot of makers. You could also need bushings for the stick or the frog if there were alignment issues that brought you to a cheval in the first place.

If the frog is not original to the stick, there is a good chance that the three facets of the octagon on the stick that meet the three facets in the frog are not the same. Many sticks are not perfect octagons with 45° angles everywhere, especially with older bows. This is where the structural/mechanical part of the repair comes in, because if the angles of the stick are 42° but the frog is 45°, then only the bottom facet and the eyelet are providing any lateral stability, and if the frog is 42° and the stick is 45°, then only the tops of the rails are pinching the stick and you're looking at thumb projection cracks and stability issues too.

If you have a shop/bow restorer around that does this kind of work and you are interested in the bow, I would consider it, but I would find that person first before committing to the bow. Not every shop/maker will take on that kind of a project, and if you aren't around someone who can do it, then the logistics becomes more of an issue than the actual repair.

Thank you. This is great information. It also 2nds what the person who does my rehairs said when I showed him the stick. He didn't seem too excited with the project so I passed and found a stick by a new maker that I think is "the one".

 

[Paps]

I cant see any of the proposed work on this bow having a detrimental effect.
You are right to try other bows, but if one feels particularly good to you, then that's your bow!