China Grove

[Wwarrior]

Hi

I made a video clip of me playing China Grove if it helps at all :



There's a few other Doobies in there also.

 

[Kipp Harrington]

Hi

I made a video clip of me playing China Grove if it helps at all :



There's a few other Doobies in there also.

Lol. This is the video I’ve been watching!!! Yes, it has been helpful. Thank you!

 

[Wwarrior]

Ahh ok - Nice one. That was done a few years back. I did all those bass vids the same day one after the other so they might not be exact but I think it's pretty close ... Glad it helped ;-)

 

[Gluvhand]

It is just a thought, really. I remember somebody on here trying to learn Bill Wyman's endlessly evolving bass lines in Miss You. For my own part I'm going to try and learn the bass part to 'Songs from the Wood' by Jethro Tull. The difference is that the Tull bassist had a very set, composed part to play. It is complex, but it is hard-written.

For me, the China Grove bass line has some 'tropes' rather than either completely improvised sections (like Chris Hillman's lines on Renaissance Fair by the Byrds), but the bass lines aren't set in stone. I notice some Motown-esque traits in the bass parts, and even a bit of chord work! Quite an interesting bass line.

Completely off topic I guess but Keef played bass on Miss You I believe.

 

[FingerDub]

Hi

I made a video clip of me playing China Grove if it helps at all :



There's a few other Doobies in there also.

Lol. This is the video I’ve been watching!!! Yes, it has been helpful. Thank you!

Warrior, great job man, you play it well.

I'm a little perplexed as to why to don't "stay in the neighborhood" for a lot of the song. For example, you play the pre-chorus run starting on the A string necessitating you to move left on the board while instead you could play both it and the majority of the song by sticking around the 7th to 9th fret area starting on the E string instead.

Of course there is no "correct way" to play everything, but that is what I was always taught.

 

[Wwarrior]

Warrior, great job man, you play it well.

I'm a little perplexed as to why to don't "stay in the neighborhood" for a lot of the song. For example, you play the pre-chorus run starting on the A string necessitating you to move left on the board while instead you could play both it and the majority of the song by sticking around the 7th to 9th fret area starting on the E string instead.

Of course there is no "correct way" to play everything, but that is what I was always taught.

Hey FD

Thanks for the kind words. During the pre-chorus part in the earlier section (at 50 seconds), there is a slide up into "Well, ya talkin' bout ..." which I start at that same lower fret section. I play all the pre-chorus parts the same way.

Tiran plays that same slide up from the same area (1979) :


I normally do try and stay in the neighborhood as this aids in faster playing due to less travel but in some cases, I will move about the neck.

In this instance, it is for this slide up but there are parts of the song where Tiran plays in that same area like the bridge as seen here:


and here :


Also, this is for the end of the bridge when he does the bunny hops (little octaves) up the neck.
For me, using the lower area of the neck provides wider fret spacing thus making them easier to target.

And, again for me anyway, the different areas of the bass gives a very different tonal quality, even though they are technically the same note. Eg: A# fretted on the A string first fret vs A# on the 6th fret of the E string sounds much deeper when played on the E string. I'll tend to go for the area of the neck that gives the best tone for that song whether it's easier to play or not.

In some instances, I'll also play in different areas as that is just the way I learned the song.

I tend to break songs into sections so they are easier to remember.
"For this bit I'm up here, then this section it's mostly down there ..."

It's just easier for me sometimes to compartmentalize song sections.

I've never seen Tiran play that exact section though but I can see the 'new' guy John Cowan plays it the way I do as seen here :


The touring player in 2001 also plays that section the same as me :


I will also sometimes move about the neck (unnecessarily ?) because it 'looks' cooler. Guitar players when they do solos, bridges and stuff jump about all over the place so I do a bit of that too.

I have seen loads of bass players up close and watched them carefully and tend to find the ones that stay all in the same area of the neck with little movement to seem a bit 'lifeless'.

The bass players that seem more energetic/entertaining to me are the ones that travel all over the neck and do other incidental things - as long as they are hitting the right notes, it's fine - and looks more interesting.

Anyway, just my 2 c's ;-)

 

[jerry]

The bassist in your video from 2001 was Skylark, awesome bassist and super nice cat.

 

[Wwarrior]

The bassist in your video from 2001 was Skylark, awesome bassist and super nice cat.

Sure is - He's amazing ... !

 

[Kipp Harrington]

I don't know how accurate this is or if this is the actual original studio isolated bass line...but here it is!

Does it sound like Tiran Porter is using a pick on this track? Just curious. Did he usually use a pick. Thanks to anyone who may have an answer to this.

 

[FingerDub]

Hey FD

Thanks for the kind words. During the pre-chorus part in the earlier section (at 50 seconds), there is a slide up into "Well, ya talkin' bout ..." which I start at that same lower fret section. I play all the pre-chorus parts the same way.

Tiran plays that same slide up from the same area (1979) :


I normally do try and stay in the neighborhood as this aids in faster playing due to less travel but in some cases, I will move about the neck.

In this instance, it is for this slide up but there are parts of the song where Tiran plays in that same area like the bridge as seen here:


and here :


Also, this is for the end of the bridge when he does the bunny hops (little octaves) up the neck.
For me, using the lower area of the neck provides wider fret spacing thus making them easier to target.

And, again for me anyway, the different areas of the bass gives a very different tonal quality, even though they are technically the same note. Eg: A# fretted on the A string first fret vs A# on the 6th fret of the E string sounds much deeper when played on the E string. I'll tend to go for the area of the neck that gives the best tone for that song whether it's easier to play or not.

In some instances, I'll also play in different areas as that is just the way I learned the song.

I tend to break songs into sections so they are easier to remember.
"For this bit I'm up here, then this section it's mostly down there ..."

It's just easier for me sometimes to compartmentalize song sections.

I've never seen Tiran play that exact section though but I can see the 'new' guy John Cowan plays it the way I do as seen here :


The touring player in 2001 also plays that section the same as me :


I will also sometimes move about the neck (unnecessarily ?) because it 'looks' cooler. Guitar players when they do solos, bridges and stuff jump about all over the place so I do a bit of that too.

I have seen loads of bass players up close and watched them carefully and tend to find the ones that stay all in the same area of the neck with little movement to seem a bit 'lifeless'.

The bass players that seem more energetic/entertaining to me are the ones that travel all over the neck and do other incidental things - as long as they are hitting the right notes, it's fine - and looks more interesting.

Anyway, just my 2 c's ;-)

Hey, thanks for taking the time to respond and post all of that. Good info, and makes sense. Making me think I may be too rigid in my playing. Logic to me rules all, you know economy of motion...etc...but the reasons for going back down DID make sense and I can see both reasons being valid. My world has been turned upside down!!

Again, thanks. And Cowan in that GMA clip was tripping out!? Vibrating? Haha.

 

[Wwarrior]

Does it sound like Tiran Porter is using a pick on this track? Just curious. Did he usually use a pick. Thanks to anyone who may have an answer to this.

Hey Kipp

From this 1976 article : [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

"Tiran: I play with a pick only occasionally. Generally I go with my two fingers."

... however, he appears to be using a pick for China Grove in the clips I've seen ...

 

[Kipp Harrington]

Hey Kipp

From this 1976 article : [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

"Tiran: I play with a pick only occasionally. Generally I go with my two fingers."

... however, he appears to be using a pick for China Grove in the clips I've seen ...

Thank you Wwarrior! I was wondering about that. In your video of China Grove, it appears that you are using a pick but I don’t see one. Is that just your approach to particular songs or do you play that way most of the time? I started using a pick today while playing China Gtove and it helped out tremendously! Until today, I was not comfortable using a pick. Just felt very awkward. Now, I’m wondering if I should use a pick all the time! Thanks again for the article and info regarding my query.

 

[Wwarrior]

Thank you Wwarrior! I was wondering about that. In your video of China Grove, it appears that you are using a pick but I don’t see one. Is that just your approach to particular songs or do you play that way most of the time? I started using a pick today while playing China Grove and it helped out tremendously! Until today, I was not comfortable using a pick. Just felt very awkward. Now, I’m wondering if I should use a pick all the time! Thanks again for the article and info regarding my query.

Heya Kipp ...

Well here goes ;-)

I started playing bass in the 80's and always used a pick. Always. I never once even tried playing with my fingers back then. I played with a pick for the next 25 years as I preferred the sharper tone I could get using the edge of a pick. Even on older strings, it always sounded a bit brighter and I could get a more defined 'snap' off each note making the notes more defined.

But then ....

... One day I saw the need to play faster and hit more notes quickly in succession. Even though I was quite proficient using a pick, it definitely had it's speed limitations and limited my ability to play things quickly.

I noticed a lot of awesome players used their fingers for playing so I decided this is what I was gonna finally try. So, I trimmed my nails down to near nothing and then gave it a proper try.

And wow - I hated it.

I hated the tone I got, I hated the feel of the strings, and I just wasn't able to alternate between the 2 fingers to my liking.

I just didn't 'get' it. I was also uncomfortable not using my preferred downstroke as I had for all those years.

I've never been a fan of the distinctive sound that the 2 finger style of playing seems to get as it (to me anyway) sounds like each note has the same duration no matter what.

When I've seen others play with 2 fingers, it just seems to sound like a motorboat - blub - blub - blub - blub ...
Notes that need to 'hang' always seem to get cut off and have the same duration. (Again, to me anyway)

This is when I thought I'd try something different - and what you see in my videos.

I am actually using the back of my fingernail = usually my index finger, but occasionally my middle finger for picking. It looks like I am pick playing, but I'm just using my nail.

This allowed me to increase my playing speed as there was no longer a pick involved (which also helped me targeting between the 2 strings) and I was a bit closer to the strings. My ability to play faster seemed to increase immediately. I also still get the sharp sound from the edge of my nail like a pick gets. I also get to use a downstroke motion for playing which I much prefer.

I can mute the notes that need cutting off with my fret hand no problem.

I think the only area this is a drawback is when I need to continuously mute an open string - like when say an open E is needed to be cut off in a song.
*One song that comes to mind is INXS - New Sensation - which requires an 'On/Off' style on the E string. For that song, I use a 5 string and 'bounce' on the 5th fret of the B string which sounds the same.

Anyway, I'm sure everyone has their different playing styles - I've just found that this is what works for me.

 

[Kipp Harrington]

Heya Kipp ...

Well here goes ;-)

I started playing bass in the 80's and always used a pick. Always. I never once even tried playing with my fingers back then. I played with a pick for the next 25 years as I preferred the sharper tone I could get using the edge of a pick. Even on older strings, it always sounded a bit brighter and I could get a more defined 'snap' off each note making the notes more defined.

But then ....

... One day I saw the need to play faster and hit more notes quickly in succession. Even though I was quite proficient using a pick, it definitely had it's speed limitations and limited my ability to play things quickly.

I noticed a lot of awesome players used their fingers for playing so I decided this is what I was gonna finally try. So, I trimmed my nails down to near nothing and then gave it a proper try.

And wow - I hated it.

I hated the tone I got, I hated the feel of the strings, and I just wasn't able to alternate between the 2 fingers to my liking.

I just didn't 'get' it. I was also uncomfortable not using my preferred downstroke as I had for all those years.

I've never been a fan of the distinctive sound that the 2 finger style of playing seems to get as it (to me anyway) sounds like each note has the same duration no matter what.

When I've seen others play with 2 fingers, it just seems to sound like a motorboat - blub - blub - blub - blub ...
Notes that need to 'hang' always seem to get cut off and have the same duration. (Again, to me anyway)

This is when I thought I'd try something different - and what you see in my videos.

I am actually using the back of my fingernail = usually my index finger, but occasionally my middle finger for picking. It looks like I am pick playing, but I'm just using my nail.

This allowed me to increase my playing speed as there was no longer a pick involved (which also helped me targeting between the 2 strings) and I was a bit closer to the strings. My ability to play faster seemed to increase immediately. I also still get the sharp sound from the edge of my nail like a pick gets. I also get to use a downstroke motion for playing which I much prefer.

I can mute the notes that need cutting off with my fret hand no problem.

I think the only area this is a drawback is when I need to continuously mute an open string - like when say an open E is needed to be cut off in a song.
*One song that comes to mind is INXS - New Sensation - which requires an 'On/Off' style on the E string. For that song, I use a 5 string and 'bounce' on the 5th fret of the B string which sounds the same.

Anyway, I'm sure everyone has their different playing styles - I've just found that this is what works for me.

Very interesting story! Isn’t it strange how different styles work for so many different people?

I was so happy with the proficiency I had playing China Grove (with a pick), it made me consider using a pick all the time! Until yesterday, I was not real comfortable playing with a pick... which is strange, because I used a pick playing a guitar for 30+ years!

Anyhow, I think I will still focus on fingerstyle, with the exception of a few songs that are easier for me to play with a pick. I have very small hands and short fingers do some songs present a problem for me. The pick will help me with that because of my right hand “stretching” ability to get to the G string on occasion (or, rapid-fire alternate picking/16th notes).

Thanks for the story. It’s nice to read about other players’ challenges and adjustments. By the way, I think you’re an excellent bass player. Keep up the good work!

 

[Killed_by_Death]

25-Jul-73
China Grove/Evil Woman single is released:

 

[JimK]

25-Jul-73
China Grove/Evil Woman single is released:

View attachment 3918076

2 guitars, 2 drummers, and a bassist...simple.
(Billy Payne on piano).

 

[jerry]

2 guitars, 2 drummers, and a bassist...simple.
(Billy Payne on piano).

Billy Payne still tours with them.

 

[JimK]

...

Billy Payne still tours with them.

I actually like this version of the band...even the bassist (I'm a huge Tiran Porter fan).
I have the BD of this band performing Toulouse Street & The Captain And Me in their entirety. PBS sometimes airs it. Some songs had never been played live before. Very cool.

 

[jerry]

...

I actually like this version of the band...even the bassist (I'm a huge Tiran Porter fan).
I have the BD of this band performing Toulouse Street & The Captain And Me in their entirety. PBS sometimes airs it. Some songs had never been played live before. Very cool.

I love that live album and the new arrangements on some of the deep cuts off those albums, John Cowen sounds great with them. A lot of ringers in that touring band like Marc Russo.