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Chord Proggression Notation

A

avenger7326

Apr 30, 2009
52
1
37
Bellport, New York
#1
Couldn't really find my answer by searching. I have a chord progression that's written like this:

I7/V7#9 - bVII7/bIIImaj7 - bVI7b9/II7 - V7b9/i7 - i7/IV7#5 - v7/I7#11 - i7/IV7#5 - bVIImaj7/V7#5

I have 3 questions:
1. What is this kind of notation called?
2. Does the "/" separating chords mean they share the same measure?
3. This is my main question. What is the difference between the lowercase and uppercase roman numerals? i.e. I7 and i7.
I understand it means major and minor but what does it mean in this sense with 7th chords in a progression?

I'm just a little confused any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
 
#2
1. Seems to me be to be a chord chart, which essentially outlines the chords in a piece of music.

2. Not too sure, won't try to answer that.

3. A lower case implies a minor chord in a progression (i.e. i) while an upper case implies a major chord (i.e. V).
 
#3
Your looking at functional harmony analysis. It's kinda hard to tell without looking at the actual page you're looking at, but the slashes are one of two things = either bar lines OR it's notating secondary dominance. As Rudreaux says, major and minor triad plus tension. So I7 and i7 with C as the root would be C E G Bb and C Eb G Bb respectively.
 
#4
Ed Fuqua said:
Your looking at functional harmony analysis. It's kinda hard to tell without looking at the actual page you're looking at, but the slashes are one of two things = either bar lines OR it's notating secondary dominance. As Rudreaux says, major and minor triad plus tension. So I7 and i7 with C as the root would be C E G Bb and C Eb G Bb respectively.
Click to expand...

In this case I don't think he looking at secondary dominants because you need to have a dominant function chord (V or vii) in there and in the examples given there are slash chords with neither of those in the top or the bottom.
 
#5
Well let's see. Let's use C
I7/V7#9 - bVII7/bIIImaj7 - bVI7b9/II7 - V7b9/i7 - i7/IV7#5 - v7/I7#11 - i7/IV7#5 - bVIImaj7/V7#5

If those are bar lines you have:
C7 / F7#9 Bb7/ Ebmaj7 Ab7b9 / D7 F7b9 / C-7 C-7 /F7#5 G-7 /C7#11 C- /F7#5 Bbmaj7 / G7#5 //

Well, OK. I'm not sure why the Cminor in bar 5 is notated twice, but if this were notating secondary dominance, you wouldn't notate the first chord as the tonic dominant of the dominant chord, you'd just notate the dominant. And no, you wouldn't have tensions on the secondary "key signatures" (it would just be bVI7b9 of ii, not of II7).

But no, you don't need either a V or vii to do that. In the key of C, an F minor chord is the ii of biii, right?
 
#6
1. What is this kind of notation called?
Click to expand...
I don't know if it has an "official" name, but Chord Chart, Functional Harmony, and Jazz Chord Notation have all been used. Functional Harmony is probably the most accurate.

2. Does the "/" separating chords mean they share the same measure?
Click to expand...

Usually a "/" is used to indicate and alternate note int the bass (Cmaj/F for example)
But it seems your example wants to convey something else.
Those who don't know better will sometimes use the slash to separate chords within the same measure.
I'd ask the author for clarity.

3. What is the difference between the lowercase and uppercase roman numerals? i.e. I7 and i7.
I understand it means major and minor but what does it mean in this sense with 7th chords in a progression?
Click to expand...

I7 = dominant :1,3,5,b7
i7 =minor seventh :1,b3,5,b7
I maj 7 = major 7th :1,3,5,7

think about it like this:
Caps/lowercase shows if the triad is major or minor
" 7 "indicates a flat 7 unless its "maj 7" or "dim7"
 
#7
Ed Fuqua said:
Well let's see. Let's use C
I7/V7#9 - bVII7/bIIImaj7 - bVI7b9/II7 - V7b9/i7 - i7/IV7#5 - v7/I7#11 - i7/IV7#5 - bVIImaj7/V7#5

If those are bar lines you have:
C7 / F7#9 Bb7/ Ebmaj7 Ab7b9 / D7 F7b9 / C-7 C-7 /F7#5 G-7 /C7#11 C- /F7#5 Bbmaj7 / G7#5 //

Well, OK. I'm not sure why the Cminor in bar 5 is notated twice, but if this were notating secondary dominance, you wouldn't notate the first chord as the tonic dominant of the dominant chord, you'd just notate the dominant. And no, you wouldn't have tensions on the secondary "key signatures" (it would just be bVI7b9 of ii, not of II7).

But no, you don't need either a V or vii to do that. In the key of C, an F minor chord is the ii of biii, right?
Click to expand...

If you're trying to analyze a secondary dominant you need a chord with dominant function (V or viio).

If you found a f minor triad in C major you could analyze that as a borrowed iv chord from parallel minor. v (minor v that is)/bvii isn't valid because minor triads don't have dominant function.

Looking at the first 4 chords you wrote out, C7 / F7#9 Bb7/ Ebmaj7, looks like descending 5th root movement, VI II V I, or classically, Eb Maj: V7/ii > V7(#9)/V > V7 > I7.
 
#8
mambo4 said:
Usually a "/" is used to indicate and alternate note int the bass (Cmaj/F for example)
But it seems your example wants to convey something else.
Those who don't know better will sometimes use the slash to separate chords within the same measure.
I'd ask the author for clarity.
Click to expand...

Some lazy piano players will notate extended chords this way like I7/V7#9 means (in C major) play a C7 chord in the right hand and G7#9 in the left which essentially adds up to a G alt. chord.

Guitar players hate trying to read changes expressed like that.
 
#9
onlyclave said:
If you're trying to analyze a secondary dominant you need a chord with dominant function (V or viio).

If you found a f minor triad in C major you could analyze that as a borrowed iv chord from parallel minor. v (minor v that is)/bvii isn't valid because minor triads don't have dominant function.

Looking at the first 4 chords you wrote out, C7 / F7#9 Bb7/ Ebmaj7, looks like descending 5th root movement, VI II V I, or classically, Eb Maj: V7/ii > V7(#9)/V > V7 > I7.
Click to expand...

No, I disagree. As I illustrated in my example, the F minor is acting as ii chord in Eb major. This is notated as ii/biii or the ii chord of the flat third of the original "key" of C. It's not modal interchange.
 
#10
onlyclave said:
Looking at the first 4 chords you wrote out, C7 / F7#9 Bb7/ Ebmaj7, looks like descending 5th root movement, VI II V I, or classically, Eb Maj: V7/ii > V7(#9)/V > V7 > I7.
Click to expand...

Couple of things, what I wrote out is the OP's chord progression with C as the tonic; his first chord is I7 therefore C7, I'm not sure what you are trying to do with your harmony.

What are the slashes (mine are bar lines) and what are you signifying with the arrows?
 
#12
The slashes in my example are actual secondary dominant chords, ie "Five seven of two". The arrows are showing harmonic progression.

"Eb Maj: V7/ii > V7(#9)/V > V7 > Ima7" is the roman numeral analysis of the guitar chord realization you made of the OP's original chord changes, which is actually functional. V/ii is a secondary dominant which typically resolves to the chord on the bottom, ii which diatonically is a subdominant function chord, but in this case the resolution is extended by moving to another subdominant function, V/V, which then resolves to an Authentic Cadence, V > I.

I think the changes the OP wrote out break down like this:

C7 | G7#9 | Bb7 | Ebma7 |
Ab7b9 | G7b9 | Cmi7 | Cmi7 |
Cmi7 | F7#5 | Gmi7 | C7#11 |
Cmi7 | F7#5 | Bbma7| G7#5 :|

Don't know how good that's going to sound, but on the bandstand it's easier to read I7 in C as an C7 chord rather than trying to do mental math and determine that V7/IV is the same as C7.

FWIW, if you're analyzing a chord as iii/ii, you have the wrong tonic.
 
#13
My original changes are based on the unanswered assumption (stated in my post) that the slashes are bar lines. I have NEVER seen "slash" chords written in Roman numerals, a C7/Bb is STILL just a V7 chord.

I'm not analysing anything as a "iii of ii", in the key of C major an F minor chord is the ii of biii, or the ii chord resolving to the secondary key center of Eb major.
 
#14
Ed Fuqua said:
My original changes are based on the unanswered assumption (stated in my post) that the slashes are bar lines. I have NEVER seen "slash" chords written in Roman numerals, a C7/Bb is STILL just a V7 chord.

I'm not analysing anything as a "iii of ii", in the key of C major an F minor chord is the ii of biii, or the ii chord resolving to the secondary key center of Eb major.
Click to expand...

From post #9

Ed Fuqua said:
No, I disagree. As I illustrated in my example, the F minor is acting as ii chord in Eb major. This is notated as ii/biii or the ii chord of the flat third of the original "key" of C. It's not modal interchange.
Click to expand...

And for the record, in music theory a V/V "slash chord" is a secondary dominant. In C major it indicates a D major triad. If you want a Bb in the bass of your C7 chord and let's just do it in C major for fun that would be written V2/IV.

Anyway, I'm not going to get baited into a pissing match. Have a nice day. :cool:
 
#15
avenger7326 said:
I7/V7#9 - bVII7/bIIImaj7 - bVI7b9/II7 - V7b9/i7 - i7/IV7#5 - v7/I7#11 - i7/IV7#5 - bVIImaj7/V7#5
Click to expand...

onlyclave said:
C7 | G7#9 | Bb7 | Ebma7 |
Ab7b9 | G7b9 | Cmi7 | Cmi7 |
Cmi7 | F7#5 | Gmi7 | C7#11 |
Cmi7 | F7#5 | Bbma7| G7#5 :|
Click to expand...

Using that approach, wouldn't it be this?

C7 | G7#9 | Bb7 | Ebma7 |
Ab7b9 | D7 |G7b9 | Cmi7 |
Cmi7 | F7#5 | Gmi7 | C7#11 |
Cmi7 | F7#5 | Bbma7| G7#5 :|

Though I tend to think that either the dashes or the slashes are meant to represent bar lines, but not both.
 
#18
I'm no pro, but when I first saw the OP's notation, it struck me that whoever wrote it originally was using the hyphens to indicate bar lines, so this was an eight-bar example. If so, then the slashes might be only separating two chords in each measure, presumably on the 1 and 3 beats, like this:

C7 G7#9 | Bb7 Ebmaj7 | Ab7b9 D7 | G7b9 Cmin7

Cmin7 F7#5 | Gmin7 C7#11 | Cmin7 F7#5 | Bbmaj7 G7#5

I'm also no pianist. Does this work?
 
#19
Ed Fuqua said:
No, I disagree. As I illustrated in my example, the F minor is acting as ii chord in Eb major. This is notated as ii/biii or the ii chord of the flat third of the original "key" of C. It's not modal interchange.
Click to expand...

Where's the F minor - I'm not seeing it?
I agree that it's not unusual to write a secondary ii-V in the way you describe (i.e. over the target secondary cadence - ii/bIII, V/bIII, bIII), especially when doing a functional harmonic analysis. But I'm having trouble figuring out what you're suggesting. I also agree with Jack that the seventh chord in the progression should be G7 and not F7, yes?
 

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