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Chords and their corresponding modes

#41
Chris K said:
Now allow me to explain why IMHO that is an utterly useless list.

To help beginning players - we are in the General Instruction area here-, the nomenclature of chords should be made as simple as possible. 'Simple' means both systematic and generally accepted.

Chords are most easily known from their intervals. A 7th chord consist of 4 notes, a root, a third, a fifth and a seventh. The root won't vary, the third may be major or minor, the fifth may be perfect, diminished or augmented and the 7th may be minor, major or diminished. There are eight different seventh chords (10 in theory, but never mind):

1. diminished seventh (1, b3, b5, bb7)
2. half diminished seventh (1, b3, b5, 7)
3. minor seventh (1, b3, 5, b7)
4. minor major seventh (1, b3, 5, 7)
5. dominant seventh (1, 3, 5, b7)
6. major seventh (1, 3, 5, 7)
7. augmented seventh (1, 3, #5, b7)
8. augmented major seventh (1, 3, #5, 7)

They are ranked like this because
  • 1-4 have b3, 4-8 have 3;
  • 1-2 have b5, 3-6 have 5, 7-8 have #5;
  • 1 has bb7, other uneven numbers have b7, even numbers have 7.
Anyone who is able to post on TB should also be able to remember them this way, even if he is a Phrygid from Doromyxolydionia.
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A half-diminished 7th is not (1, b3, b5, 7) it is (1, b3, b5, b7) Therefore, the uneven numbers do not all have "7" and your systems makes even less sense. Sorry, but this isn't horse-shoes.
 
#44
dpbass66 said:
You guys are really articulating an argument against modes from a very rudimentary perspective. When you get more advanced (in soloing) you stop thinking about "a scale to match the chord". At the advanced level that is (should) be 2nd nature. At that point you start to consider options that dont necessarily fit the chord perfectly, options that introduce harmonic alternatives that go "outside" the chord. This absolutely engages the use of scales , sometimes complex scales, and when you get to a certain point you get into complex note groupings (ie church triads...). Even pentatonic scales which are seemingly simple can be made into a very complex study in chord-scale theory. You've all heard the term "he is playing outside the changes". Expert improvisors can completely "play" with your ears...bending them "outside" the harmony and taking you back inside the "harmony". When you speak of blues or rock players, mostly they play inside the harmony, and for the most part they are basic improvisors. One can never achieve this level of control only understanding chords from a 1-3-5-7 perspective. no serious teachers teach that way, and no serious improvisors learn that way. One reason why learning improvisation starts with "modes" or scales to match chords is that at its most basic level it is the foundation to progression to what I discuss above. Sure you can "get by" approaching improvisation with chord tones, but its at best a sloppy way to do so.
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I never meant to say anything different. But when you write: "Expert improvisors can completely "play" with your ears...bending them "outside" the harmony and taking you back inside the "harmony". ", you take for a starting point that the general harmonic pattern of the piece is leading, either to go outside it, or to stay within it, or to play around with the borderline between the two. Nobody with experience in improvisation will ever deny that.

To show that I know what I'm talking about, I will not mention my grades or the people I performed with, but invite you to listen to my alto sax solo in Song for my father at Link Removed.

The point is that improvisation will always be 'play' in the wider meaning of that word. It requires a general understanding of and feeling for the harmonies a piece, as opposite to just knowing and applying specific chord-scale combinations, choosing between options and the like. That stuff is good for students to introduce them to the realm of improvisation. Yet most books on the matter, I'm sorry to say it, remain no more than attempts to try to teach what might not be teachable.
 
#45
@Chris K, didn't mean any harm/disrespect/embarassment.
I should also say that apart from that, your approach and the approach from Kobaia is incredibly sound! If I have anything to add is that as far as approaching creating a good walking bassline, the thread is dead on as far as chords go. I always felt that soloing should be approached differently. Improvising on the MELODY is far better, it is even argued that, well I'll let Hal Galper explain it;
http://www.youtube.com/user/JazzVideoGuy#p/u/94/NehOx1JsuT4
It'll change your life.
 
#46
bobknowsbass said:
@Chris K, didn't mean any harm/disrespect/embarassment.
I should also say that apart from that, your approach and the approach from Kobaia is incredibly sound! If I have anything to add is that as far as approaching creating a good walking bassline, the thread is dead on as far as chords go. I always felt that soloing should be approached differently. Improvising on the MELODY is far better, it is even argued that, well I'll let Hal Galper explain it;
http://www.youtube.com/user/JazzVideoGuy#p/u/94/NehOx1JsuT4
It'll change your life.
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I respectfully disagree. i believe there are many ways to improvise. I'm a big believer in Miles' idea that there are no mistakes. i think any note can be used on any chord as long as its use in a convincing context
 
#47
Kobaia said:
i think any note can be used on any chord as long as its use in a convincing context
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+1 to that.

It shows that there are no unique chord-scale relations, therefore no unique chord-mode relations, therefore no urgency to list them or learn them. Unless I'm hallucinating, that's what this thread was about.

Secondly, IMHO, in most pieces of music there is some general principle or idea beneath the individual chords, either functional harmony or something totally different, Indian pentatonics if you like, but any principle anyhow, and even coincidence is such a principle. Understanding the general principle of a piece is crucial for all improvisation.
 
#48
bobknowsbass said:
@Chris K, didn't mean any harm/disrespect/embarassment.
I should also say that apart from that, your approach and the approach from Kobaia is incredibly sound! If I have anything to add is that as far as approaching creating a good walking bassline, the thread is dead on as far as chords go. I always felt that soloing should be approached differently. Improvising on the MELODY is far better, it is even argued that, well I'll let Hal Galper explain it;
http://www.youtube.com/user/JazzVideoGuy#p/u/94/NehOx1JsuT4
It'll change your life.
Click to expand...

No offense taken Bob.
As it turns out, most ideas in this thread may work well. To use the melody as basis for improvisation was the way to go in much classical music as well as in classic jazz. Later on, diving into the harmonies became the standard.

The problem that shows up in this thread is that some of us refuse to understand that 'harmonies' are essentially different from 'chords'. Harmonies may be seen as a bundle of horizontal lines, voices, moving towards and away from each other, according to some general idea or principle. Chords are what you get if you cut that bundle to pieces. Chords are, IMHO, no more than a rather primitive means to understand what is going on in a piece of music, because they tend to neglect the linear movement of the music.

That may explain why it annoys me so much if chords are considered to be the fundamentals. There are lots of examples where good lines move together without forming chords as we know them, and still result in awesome music.
 
#51
slybass3000 said:
yes and this is so relevant to the OP. Great job guys. I'll know who not to call!
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The relevance is that unique chord-scale relations do not exist.

And you are most welcome to call. Look at it this way: you made some worhtwhile contributions and we learned from them.

These discussions are not about who is right or wrong. They are about sharing views and learning from them.
 
#52
Everone's tips above are great as far as the notes are concerned. With jazz, it's best to listen and do some transcribing. Think in terms of phrases rather than chord to chord to chord, that is important too but really focus in on the phrases once you're comfortable with the notes mentioned above.
 
#53
Chris K said:
The relevance is that unique chord-scale relations do not exist.

And you are most welcome to call.
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Humm Chris, I think I'll pass at calling you to sub me on a serious gig. I need players that know the importance of every notes they play ! And it starts with a good relationship between chords and scales ! SERIOUSLY, I'm not trying to be more intelligent by saying that.

And how can you deny the work of David N. Baker,Jamey Aebersold,Ramon Ricker,Jerry Bergonzi,Dick Grove and so on by saying your non-sense statement???
 
#54
slybass3000 said:
Humm Chris, I think I'll pass at calling you to sub me on a serious gig. I need players that know the importance of every notes they play ! And it starts with a good relationship between chords and scales ! SERIOUSLY, I'm not trying to be more intelligent by saying that.

And how can you deny the work of David N. Baker,Jamey Aebersold,Ramon Ricker,Jerry Bergonzi,Dick Grove and so on by saying your non-sense statement???
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slybass3000, are you maybe missing the word "unique" in Chris's post? Because he keeps talking about whether there are unique relationships between chords and scales and your responses refer to a "good" relationship between chords and scales.

I don't see how Chris's statement "denies the work" of Jamey Aebersold. Does Aebersold say that there is a single, unique scale to play over a Major 7 chord, for example? No, he gives a number of different choices, including Ionian and Lydian. Does he say that there is a single, unique scale to play over a minor chord? No, he gives 10 different options.
 
#55
Febs said:
slybass3000, are you maybe missing the word "unique" in Chris's post? Because he keeps talking about whether there are unique relationships between chords and scales and your responses refer to a "good" relationship between chords and scales.

I don't see how Chris's statement "denies the work" of Jamey Aebersold. Does Aebersold say that there is a single, unique scale to play over a Major 7 chord, for example? No, he gives a number of different choices, including Ionian and Lydian. Does he say that there is a single, unique scale to play over a minor chord? No, he gives 10 different options.
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In a diatonic chords progression like the OP stated there is a UNIQUE relationship chord/scale. To understand this debate it is important to respect the context, if not it makes no-sense.
 
#57
I don't think "unique" is a good word, but if you have a ii-V-I progression in C (major), the general consensus is the chords are built from the C Ionian (for the I), D Dorian for the ii, and G Mixolydian for the V. While it is possible to substitute all sorts of scales and arpeggios, I think it is better to stick to said scales for the basis of constructing walking bass lines or Latin / Rock / Straight eighth Jazz style bass lines. Of course triads are must-know and pentatonics are great, but it is also important to learn how to use the notes in between the chord tones, not only to connect chords in a progression, but to fully understand the sounds of extended chords...and yes that brings us to modes!
 
#58
Febs said:
What's the unique scale for a C Maj7 chord?
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In the context of CMaj it is Ionian,if you have a D7 somewhere around,then it is a Lydian. It's all about harmonic context and chord functions.

Is in it what the great jazz improvisers are saying about this?

YOU'VE GOT TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY INSIDE BEFORE PLAYING OUTSIDE. By playing inside,you respect and understand the harmonic function of the chords
 
#59
slybass3000 said:
It's all about harmonic context and chord functions.

Is in it what the great jazz improvisers are saying about this?
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Yes. And I think (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) that this is also what Chris is saying when he refers to "unique" relationships between chords and scales. It is not enough simply to know the chord--you also need to know the context in which the chord is being used.

YOU'VE GOT TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY INSIDE BEFORE PLAYING OUTSIDE. By playing inside,you respect and understand the harmonic function of the chords
Click to expand...

I agree.
 
#60
Febs said:
Yes. And I think (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) that this is also what Chris is saying when he refers to "unique" relationships between chords and scales. It is not enough simply to know the chord--you also need to know the context in which the chord is being used.



I agree.
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No, I don't think Chris was talking about harmonic context. From what I understand, he simply denies the reliationship between chords and scales, period!!
 

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