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Circle of Fifths Question

Great post. This shows the problems that will occur when things are out of context. Since there is no D# major scale it cannot be the reletive Major of C Minor, so why use it in this context.
Why can't we have a D#major scale?
Think about the answer and the consequences of what would happen if there was one in music theory and we will get closer to the reason why three semi-tones is used to describe the interval.
And yes 12 inches is a foot, but what happens to measurements when we don't land on exactly a foot or an inch? I suggest if you don't know you won't make correct measurements unless you can break it down further fractions.

And thats what i'm saying how you use the information in day to day life is not the same as you would in profesional life. But if you are going to teach, teach correctly and let students find their way to apply it.

Well, you can't really say any scale doesn't exist, because it's always possible to build it. But your point that it would rarely if ever (never say never!:-)) be used in real life is quite right. Western music theory does in fact allow for a D# major scale (or weirder ones than that); Western musical practice, however, doesn't as a rule. But you're didn't really address my point, which is that major and relative minor, in every case without exception, are by definition a minor 3rd apart, not an augmented 2nd or any other interval.

If it makes things a little clearer, let's try another example. Take the key of Gb and its relative minor, Eb minor. The reason why, in this context, it's slightly better to say they're a minor 3rd apart than to call the distance three semitones (although the latter is of course correct as far as it goes) is that three semitones could also describe the difference between Eb minor and F# major; however, Eb minor is not and, by definition, cannot be the relative minor of F# major. And as you know, all of these keys exist in the real world. If you merely say the distance is three semitones, you fail to specify why Eb minor can't be the relative minor of F# major. After all, they're three semitones apart, aren't they? It simply makes no sense to say that three semitones is a MORE correct way of explaining the interval between major and relative minor.

You can make the same point for Db major/C# major and Bb minor, all of which keys are used in practice.
 
Well, you can't really say any scale doesn't exist, because it's always possible to build it. But your point that it would rarely if ever (never say never!:-)) be used in real life is quite right. Western music theory does in fact allow for a D# major scale (or weirder ones than that); Western musical practice, however, doesn't as a rule. But you're didn't really address my point, which is that major and relative minor, in every case without exception, are by definition a minor 3rd apart, not an augmented 2nd or any other interval.

If it makes things a little clearer, let's try another example. Take the key of Gb and its relative minor, Eb minor. The reason why, in this context, it's slightly better to say they're a minor 3rd apart than to call the distance three semitones (although the latter is of course correct as far as it goes) is that three semitones could also describe the difference between Eb minor and F# major; however, Eb minor is not and, by definition, cannot be the relative minor of F# major. And as you know, all of these keys exist in the real world. If you merely say the distance is three semitones, you fail to specify why Eb minor can't be the relative minor of F# major. After all, they're three semitones apart, aren't they? It simply makes no sense to say that three semitones is a MORE correct way of explaining the interval between major and relative minor.

You can make the same point for Db major/C# major and Bb minor, all of which keys are used in practice.

Great question and point, very simple answer.

In music theory you we do not have a key signature (sig.) that involves sharps and flats combined, its one or the other.
Since Eb Minor is made of flats and F#Major is made of sharps they are not reletive, they do not share the same key sig. The same applies to your other example. A key sig. with sharps is only relative to another key sig. with sharps, and the same apllies to flats When dealing with scales and keys they must be in the correct context. I do not say this because what i have explained here is basic chapter one on key sigs and accidentals (sharps, flats, naturals, etc) theory.

This is the importance of understanding the Cycle of Fifths it sets out the order and nature of scales, how sharps are formed and how flats are formed, how key sigs. work, why key sigs. work. When you study melodic minor scales all will become clear.

I understand where you are coming from trust me, but i don't think you have the full picture and understanding of why music theory is the way it is, hence my original post of three semi-tones, which was a solution on how not to confuse a student. ( someone with little or no knowledge on the subject )

This very place we are at now as i write is because of this misunderstanding of this principal "about a minor 3rd below" as asked by E2daGGurl earlier.
I am repling to questions put, not arguing or being petty but courtious, talk to me and i talk back.
Theory out of context and order is a bit like trying to explain the plot of a film to someone who has missed the start... the questions keep coming about "who this", "whats that", "why did he do that", etc. Rent the film and start at the begining and it will all make sense, theory is the same principal, you have to have the basics to move foward.
 
Great question and point, very simple answer.

In music theory you we do not have a key signature (sig.) that involves sharps and flats combined, its one or the other.
Since Eb Minor is made of flats and F#Major is made of sharps they are not reletive, they do not share the same key sig. The same applies to your other example. A key sig. with sharps is only relative to another key sig. with sharps, and the same apllies to flats When dealing with scales and keys they must be in the correct context. I do not say this because what i have explained here is basic chapter one on key sigs and accidentals (sharps, flats, naturals, etc) theory.

This is the importance of understanding the Cycle of Fifths it sets out the order and nature of scales, how sharps are formed and how flats are formed, how key sigs. work, why key sigs. work. When you study melodic minor scales all will become clear.

I understand where you are coming from trust me, but i don't think you have the full picture and understanding of why music theory is the way it is, hence my original post of three semi-tones, which was a solution on how not to confuse a student. ( someone with little or no knowledge on the subject )

This very place we are at now as i write is because of this misunderstanding of this principal "about a minor 3rd below" as asked by E2daGGurl earlier.
I am repling to questions put, not arguing or being petty but courtious, talk to me and i talk back.
Theory out of context and order is a bit like trying to explain the plot of a film to someone who has missed the start... the questions keep coming about "who this", "whats that", "why did he do that", etc. Rent the film and start at the begining and it will all make sense, theory is the same principal, you have to have the basics to move foward.

Well, no disrespect, but it wasn't a question. I already know this stuff, and I understand it well enough to have the full picture and understanding, trust me. ;):D Nothing of what you said contradicts what I said, which is why it's perfectly OK and in fact slightly preferable to refer to that interval as a minor 3rd.
 
And yes 12 inches is a foot, but what happens to measurements when we don't land on exactly a foot or an inch? I suggest if you don't know you won't make correct measurements unless you can break it down further fractions.

Well, while we're at it, why don't we break down semi-tones into further fractions? Why don't we talk about music in terms of quarter tones, or better yet, cents?

I understand where you are coming from trust me, but i don't think you have the full picture and understanding of why music theory is the way it is, hence my original post of three semi-tones, which was a solution on how not to confuse a student. ( someone with little or no knowledge on the subject )

Right, OK, so as a pedagogical tool the "three semitones" idea is a good one to give a cursory explanation, but it should only be used as a means to an end, and not the end itself (because it isn't the end itself). After it has been explained to somebody that there are 12 inches in a foot and 5,280 feet in a mile they aren't going to go around measuring distance in inches.
 
Well, while we're at it, why don't we break down semi-tones into further fractions? Why don't we talk about music in terms of quarter tones, or better yet, cents?



Right, OK, so as a pedagogical tool the "three semitones" idea is a good one to give a cursory explanation, but it should only be used as a means to an end, and not the end itself (because it isn't the end itself). After it has been explained to somebody that there are 12 inches in a foot and 5,280 feet in a mile they aren't going to go around measuring distance in inches.

Off course not because we have learned at a basic level what makes these facts work and how to apply them when we were children.
So why then if you look at specs for cabs or amps they are in inches or mm?
An Ampeg 8x10 cab has the dims. 2' 2"x4'x1'4" but listed as 26"x48"x16" because there is no confusion. A 19" rack is not listed as 1' 7" rack. What i'm saying is in your profesional life you use the information you have learned and apply it.
In my profesional life i tour and work in countries where English is not the language. Poland, Russia, France, Netherlands, Spain, Germany, Spain etc. I cannot speak these languages but when Artists from these Countries present me with sheet music it is all the same, which is why in Europe particularly you have to be on the ball if you want to work profesionally covering large areas.
I appreiciate that in a vast country like the USA this is not a problem because you can sort out any small problems by talking them over, not an option in a multi-lingual Europe.

So no disrespect to anyone who reads this but what i need to be successfull in my job is a million miles away from gigging local in your own town, thats the lot of a pro regardless of what job he does.
 
Off course not because we have learned at a basic level what makes these facts work and how to apply them when we were children.
So why then if you look at specs for cabs or amps they are in inches or mm?
An Ampeg 8x10 cab has the dims. 2' 2"x4'x1'4" but listed as 26"x48"x16" because there is no confusion. A 19" rack is not listed as 1' 7" rack. What i'm saying is in your profesional life you use the information you have learned and apply it.
In my profesional life i tour and work in countries where English is not the language. Poland, Russia, France, Netherlands, Spain, Germany, Spain etc. I cannot speak these languages but when Artists from these Countries present me with sheet music it is all the same, which is why in Europe particularly you have to be on the ball if you want to work profesionally covering large areas.
I appreiciate that in a vast country like the USA this is not a problem because you can sort out any small problems by talking them over, not an option in a multi-lingual Europe.

So no disrespect to anyone who reads this but what i need to be successfull in my job is a million miles away from gigging local in your own town, thats the lot of a pro regardless of what job he does.

That's all good, and I mean that sincerely, but there's nothing about classical training or working in non-English-speaking countries (both of which I've done as well) that requires, or prefers, you to refer to a minor 3rd interval as "three semitones" when speaking of the distance between a major key and its relative minor. Nothing at all. People in other countries do understand intervals.
 
That's all good, and I mean that sincerely, but there's nothing about classical training or working in non-English-speaking countries (both of which I've done as well) that requires, or prefers, you to refer to a minor 3rd interval as "three semitones" when speaking of the distance between a major key and its relative minor. Nothing at all. People in other countries do understand intervals.

Great stuff and you got me thinking i had better have a check about what i'm saying. Just had quick search on the web to satisfy my own curiosity as the web brings in lots of different ideas and information and there are lots of information that uses "three half steps" and "three semi-tones" as a reference for finding Reletive Minor from Major.

The first book i have pulled from my library "Read Music" by Harry and Michael Baxter, which says on pg 49 " This means that the Reletive Minor of any Major scale is three semitones lower than the Major"
Lots of information out there to suport it as three semi-tones or three half-steps, but thats not the point i'm making, i'm only suporting it as a less confusing way.
I'm not saying you must or must not refer to the minor 3rd when describing the interval between a reletive Minor and its Major scale, experience has taught me its less confusing to teach it as three semi-tones. If a student said to me "so its a Minor 3rd" i would say yes because he has understood it and applied it thats all, but i would also say if you pass the information on explain it as three semi-tones and let the other student work out for their self that it is a minor 3rd.

Like i said there are lots of ways to teach it its what works for you.

This thread came about because E2daGGurl got confused and i offered a solution to stop confusion.

The reference to other countries and musicians was to support the fact that music theory is the same in most countries.
This is how i teach it as that is how it was taught to me and i have NEVER had a problem with teaching it that way.
 
Great stuff and you got me thinking i had better have a check about what i'm saying. Just had quick search on the web to satisfy my own curiosity as the web brings in lots of different ideas and information and there are lots of information that uses "three half steps" and "three semi-tones" as a reference for finding Reletive Minor from Major.

The first book i have pulled from my library "Read Music" by Harry and Michael Baxter, which says on pg 49 " This means that the Reletive Minor of any Major scale is three semitones lower than the Major"
Lots of information out there to suport it as three semi-tones or three half-steps, but thats not the point i'm making, i'm only suporting it as a less confusing way.
I'm not saying you must or must not refer to the minor 3rd when describing the interval between a reletive Minor and its Major scale, experience has taught me its less confusing to teach it as three semi-tones. If a student said to me "so its a Minor 3rd" i would say yes because he has understood it and applied it thats all, but i would also say if you pass the information on explain it as three semi-tones and let the other student work out for their self that it is a minor 3rd.

Like i said there are lots of ways to teach it its what works for you.

This thread came about because E2daGGurl got confused and i offered a solution to stop confusion.

The reference to other countries and musicians was to support the fact that music theory is the same in most countries.
This is how i teach it as that is how it was taught to me and i have NEVER had a problem with teaching it that way.

A book called "Read Music" is probably not the most reliable music theory resource since its title indicates it is going to teach you how to read music, ie dots on a staff.

3 semi-tones = Augmented 2nd (C-D#)
3 semi-tones = Minor 3rd (C-Eb)
3 semi-tones = Double Diminished 4th (C-Fbb)

From Wikipedia (since it's the most convenient resource from my desk at work)
"Finding the relative major or minor

To find the relative minor of a particular key go down a minor third (three semitones) from the tonic of the major key.

* Example: If your major key is C major, going down a minor third from the note C will land you on the note A. So, A minor is the relative minor of C major. Or instead of going down a minor third you can go up a sixth, or say it is the sixth note in the Major scale

To find the relative major of a particular key go up a minor third from the tonic of the minor key.

* Example: If your minor key is E minor, going up a minor third from the note E will land you on the note G. So, G major is the relative major of E minor."

So even though this resource is also referencing 3 semi-tones, the correct answer is a minor 3rd.

Edit: This thread has become ridiculous. I'm finished with Rainman Music Theory.
 
A book called "Read Music" is probably not the most reliable music theory resource since its title indicates it is going to teach you how to read music, ie dots on a staff.

3 semi-tones = Augmented 2nd (C-D#)
3 semi-tones = Minor 3rd (C-Eb)
3 semi-tones = Double Diminished 4th (C-Fbb)

From Wikipedia (since it's the most convenient resource from my desk at work)
"Finding the relative major or minor

To find the relative minor of a particular key go down a minor third (three semitones) from the tonic of the major key.

LOL... now come on seriously... Harry Baxter studed at the Hochschule in Berlin and the Royal Academy of Music London. His son Michael studed Kings Collage London and the Royal Academy of Music, and is now Director of music at St. Thomas More, and your referencing wikipedia..LOL
 
Great stuff and you got me thinking i had better have a check about what i'm saying. Just had quick search on the web to satisfy my own curiosity as the web brings in lots of different ideas and information and there are lots of information that uses "three half steps" and "three semi-tones" as a reference for finding Reletive Minor from Major.

The first book i have pulled from my library "Read Music" by Harry and Michael Baxter, which says on pg 49 " This means that the Reletive Minor of any Major scale is three semitones lower than the Major"
Lots of information out there to suport it as three semi-tones or three half-steps, but thats not the point i'm making, i'm only suporting it as a less confusing way.
I'm not saying you must or must not refer to the minor 3rd when describing the interval between a reletive Minor and its Major scale, experience has taught me its less confusing to teach it as three semi-tones. If a student said to me "so its a Minor 3rd" i would say yes because he has understood it and applied it thats all, but i would also say if you pass the information on explain it as three semi-tones and let the other student work out for their self that it is a minor 3rd.

Like i said there are lots of ways to teach it its what works for you.

This thread came about because E2daGGurl got confused and i offered a solution to stop confusion.

The reference to other countries and musicians was to support the fact that music theory is the same in most countries.
This is how i teach it as that is how it was taught to me and i have NEVER had a problem with teaching it that way.

No argument with the fact that the distance is indeed three semitones--something that is beyond dispute and was never disputed--only with the idea that that's invariably the better way to teach it. My point is that it's sometimes an incomplete way that may cause more problems than it solves. That is, it may on occasion create more confusion than already existed, or introduce a new form of confusion.

For instance, imagine E2daGGurl wanted to find the relative minor of C# major, and you said, don't worry about that minor 3rd stuff, just go down three semitones. So suppose that she does that and then says, aha, it's Bb minor! That would be just as correct an answer purely in terms of the instruction you gave, since Bb is indeed three semitones down from C#, but in reality, as you know, it would be a wrong answer. (And if you think this is an improbable example, let me say that I have seen this mistake time and time again in my own efforts at teaching and explanation.)

So just saying it's three semitones won't get the job done completely, because there's more than one interval that consists of three semitones. OTOH, in this context, if you know what a minor 3rd is, you can't get the answer wrong by, for instance, mixing up an augmented 2nd and a minor 3rd. That's why referring to the number of semitones is not necessarily better than specifying the interval.

Of course you're right that people have to learn that the distance between a major key and its relative minor consists of three semitones! Again, no argument. But to understand this stuff properly, they also need to know that not all three-semitone intervals are the same--that an augmented 2nd is not the same thing as a minor 3rd, for example.

To sum up, all minor 3rds do consist of three semitones, but a distance of three semitones is not always a minor 3rd. The relative minor key, however, must always be a minor 3rd away, never an augmented 2nd or a double-diminished 4th. So it's better taught that way IMHO.
 
Hi Richard, great stuff and i agree with all of it 100% as the end result is the same and between us we have shown that there is more to be found in the most simplest of music theory concepts if we take the time and ask good relevent questions.
Like i say the problems come when people jump in at the middle or take part of the subject like chord structure, and that i'm afraid is the problem with all the information that is available these days.
All the information we got was controlled and ordered by our tutors, no one else, so we only learned what we was taught with no other reference.
That made everything clear as we had to understand one concept before we were allowed to the next one. That was over a nine year period so i can't be grasped overnight.

I for one will be checking out some of the Theory books mentioned on these posts and threads as i have a bit of time on my hands just now, for a different view on it as all my books are from my studies in the 70s LOL. Maybe i need to get down with the kids, and check out some modern ideas. LOL
 
Hi Richard, great stuff and i agree with all of it 100% as the end result is the same and between us we have shown that there is more to be found in the most simplest of music theory concepts if we take the time and ask good relevent questions.
Like i say the problems come when people jump in at the middle or take part of the subject like chord structure, and that i'm afraid is the problem with all the information that is available these days.
All the information we got was controlled and ordered by our tutors, no one else, so we only learned what we was taught with no other reference.
That made everything clear as we had to understand one concept before we were allowed to the next one. That was over a nine year period so i can't be grasped overnight.

I for one will be checking out some of the Theory books mentioned on these posts and threads as i have a bit of time on my hands just now, for a different view on it as all my books are from my studies in the 70s LOL. Maybe i need to get down with the kids, and check out some modern ideas. LOL

http://www.minotaurz.com/minotaur/edu/Theory_History.html

Start here. This should take you back to the early 1700's.

You should stop fabricating things within the context of "more to be found in the most simplest of music theory concepts if we take the time to ask good relevent questions" (sic). The question was posed and the answer was given and the asker was satisfied. Your obfuscation of the issue by reducing the answer to minute constituents which can then be reinterpreted into an incorrect answer under the guise of context was the genesis of the problem. Dig?
 
This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but seriously, been said before, saying it yet again, can't we just all agree that the distance of a minor third can be considered as 3 semitones, but we call the entire interval as a whole, a minor third, and move on? We don't need to be bringing up wikipedia or saying one source is more credible over another because of the author. I don't know whether this discussion has helped the OP or not, but if it has helped then well done!

If you were in theory class during aural listening and recognition you'd be calling out intervals, not semitones. But it's really "six of one, a half a dozen of the other", for the purposes of basic instruction of the concept.
 
Just to summarise, because it seems like noone's seeing eye-to-eye on this one bit and it's all getting pretty ridiculous now... (and I'm bored and have the somewhat arrogant assumption my contribution is somehow actually making some difference here)

E2daGGurl got confused about the use of a "minor third below" as it's use applied to a scale degrees and wondered how the third got below the root.

This was then explained to him/her as the relative minor scale.

Then it was also explained as the description of the interval itself as being three semitones lower than the tonic, purely using chromatic intervals and not scale degrees or interval names.

Yes, the former is correct, yes the latter is the way you'd explain someone how to arrive at it assuming the person you're instructing has little to no knowledge of intervals.


OK kids? Play nicely now :p
 
Thanks Jake but i believe we are playing nicely, its just a bit of fun on Theory, a bit of word and terminology play that all means the same thing in essence. Heavens forbid if i ever introduced the idea that that to find a reletive minor look to the 6th of the major scale for even more ways LOL.
 
......All the information we got was controlled and ordered by our tutors, no one else, so we only learned what we was taught with no other reference.
That made everything clear as we had to understand one concept before we were allowed to the next one. That was over a nine year period so i can't be grasped overnight......

If this is true, its a curious way to teach...and to learn. In a previous post you mentioned that it was 'up to the student to learn how to apply knowledge".
 
Thanks Jake but i believe we are playing nicely, its just a bit of fun on Theory, a bit of word and terminology play that all means the same thing in essence. Heavens forbid if i ever introduced the idea that that to find a reletive minor look to the 6th of the major scale for even more ways LOL.

Don't you mean 9 semi-tones? One thing you need to be careful of when teaching beginners is consistency.
 
We should take a poll how many people have used the word semi-tone on a gig? How many singers in rehearsal have said can you take that song up 4 semi-tones. I can say I've never heard the word semi-tone on a gig. half-step, whole-step, or the name of the interval like minor 3rd.

IMO all these my terminology is more correct than your terminology arguments are a disservice to noobs still figure out what the terms actually mean.
 

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