Double Bass Civic

[koricancowboy]

Well in the case of the Gannett students I know, two are playing jazz as freelancers, one plays modern music in a new music collective and one is teaching and playing freelance in various regional orchestras and one plays exclusively for fun and makes six figures in business. Winning an orchestral job is not the only way to make a comfortable living in music.

 

[Eli_Upright12]

So, and I'm being serious, what are all these other bass players doing to make a living outside of an orchestra?
Are they all teaching? and if they never won an orchestral job themselves, how could they teach others to do so? Or are they just teaching more teachers and so on?

Just because you havent won a job in an orchestra doesn't mean you can't teach it. I'll offer this analogy. How many little league or Pop Warner coaches have played professionally in their sport? How many high school basketball coaches have played in the NBA? There are only limited positions in orchestras, and not everyone can win them. To win a position in a top orchestra you have to have the chops, the undying desire to be in an orchestra, the right mental state, the connections and some luck. For a lot of people the best orchestra they will play in is there college orchestra and to be entirely honest a lot of conservatory orchestras are better than professional ones. Try not to discredit someone, because they havent taken a specific path.

 

[Dbass926]

I think that that is a flawed analogy - the numbers that count in this instance are the percentage of students that a teacher is able to coach into successful careers. It's no surprise that Indiana has a lot of successful students, they have more than 4 times the number of students that Curtis or Rice or BU graduates. If you look at how many of them are now yoga teachers or business people you could build a case for any of these conservatories being great schools to learn not to do music also. The teachers who prepare a lot of their students for orchestral careers (i.e. Hal Robinson, Ed Barker, Paul Ellison, etc.) had orchestral careers that were very successful. They were also very good soloists, great chamber musicians, and very smart people.

To say that every high school basketball coach is equally valid disregards the fact that just like music, only a tiny fraction of high school b-ball players go on to play in college, and then even fewer go on to professional careers. I can probably predict that if Larry Bird started coaching at Central High School that a larger number of his kids would go on to college and professional careers.
Similarly, to say a lot of conservatory orchestras are better than professional ones - well having been in a few of each, I'm sure the members of this board would have several objections. Disparity in number of rehearsals, general level from player to player, skill of conductors, and level of repertoire played all make this an impossible comparison. Is the Curtis student orchestra better than the Lubbock Symphony? Maybe, but how worthwhile is that comparison to make?

When it comes to what many people on this board want to do (play in an orchestra), the odds that you will succeed can be greatly improved upon if you manage to team up with a high-performing orchestral bassist and teacher. There is a lot of other rewarding work to do with a bass, but that discussion might work better in another forum than Orchestral Auditions.

 

[Eli_Upright12]

I think that that is a flawed analogy - the numbers that count in this instance are the percentage of students that a teacher is able to coach into successful careers. It's no surprise that Indiana has a lot of successful students, they have more than 4 times the number of students that Curtis or Rice or BU graduates. If you look at how many of them are now yoga teachers or business people you could build a case for any of these conservatories being great schools to learn not to do music also. The teachers who prepare a lot of their students for orchestral careers (i.e. Hal Robinson, Ed Barker, Paul Ellison, etc.) had orchestral careers that were very successful. They were also very good soloists, great chamber musicians, and very smart people.

To say that every high school basketball coach is equally valid disregards the fact that just like music, only a tiny fraction of high school b-ball players go on to play in college, and then even fewer go on to professional careers. I can probably predict that if Larry Bird started coaching at Central High School that a larger number of his kids would go on to college and professional careers.

I'm not following your logic on why the analogy doesn't work. I wasn't saying that all basketball coaches are the same, but I was saying that just because a player didn't make it to the NBA doesn't mean they don't have the mind to teach another person how to do it. I'll use a more specific example of the coach at my school, Butler University. Look at our coach, Brad Stevens. What NBA team did he play for? He didn't play in the NBA. What college team did he play for? Depauw University. So how do you account for Gordon Hayward being a three-star recruit that two years later was a lottery draft pick? Brad Stevens is a great coach. His mind for the game is truly spectacular, but he never made it as a player.

 

[¡bassballbill!]

I think that that is a flawed analogy - the numbers that count in this instance are the percentage of students that a teacher is able to coach into successful careers. It's no surprise that Indiana has a lot of successful students, they have more than 4 times the number of students that Curtis or Rice or BU graduates. If you look at how many of them are now yoga teachers or business people you could build a case for any of these conservatories being great schools to learn not to do music also. The teachers who prepare a lot of their students for orchestral careers (i.e. Hal Robinson, Ed Barker, Paul Ellison, etc.) had orchestral careers that were very successful. They were also very good soloists, great chamber musicians, and very smart people.

You should probably give Hurst and Bransby a liiiiittle more credit than that. Especially considering that many kids (me) go to IU because they didn't get in to BU, Rice, or Curtis. And I could be totally wrong, but I feel like you would consider yourself pretty successful if you were principal of Kansas City and then Los Angeles, no?

Also, I don't know how much stock you put into this list, http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7278248&postcount=438 but after an admittedly cursory count, there were more than 4 to 1 IUs to BUs (21 to 2 - and one of the two from BU went to IU also), and that list doesn't include the recent Kansas City and Alabama principal winners, who went to IU. I'm not trying to dis BU -- Ed Barker is without a question one of the world's best teachers and players and I would love to study with him. But I don't know why you're hating on the Hoosiers.

 

[¡bassballbill!]

Also, lets be totally honest, how much of one's basketball success is determined by his pre-professional coaches, and how much is determined by being 6'6" and having a 3 foot vertical jump.

 

[Eli_Upright12]

Also, lets be totally honest, how much of one's basketball success is determined by his pre-professional coaches, and how much is determined by being 6'6" and having a 3 foot vertical jump.

How much is a musicians ability determined by their ability to sit in a practice room for 8 hours a day? With the proper mindset a bassist could make it from anywhere, but like basketball players, most need some molding and shaping from someone who knows what they are doing.

 

[Dbass926]

@ibassballbill - Good point. Ed Barker is a great teacher, but I didn't think that the BU curriculum was particularly conducive to orchestral audition training - rather I think that Ed's philosophy (as would be supported by his Jason Heath podcast) is more that a bass player should be able to do anything on the bass that could be asked for, and his process is one of continuous development rather than honing in on one goal.
It seems from an outsider's perspective that IU has a very audition-oriented philosophy, and that is something every student is expected to pursue.
There are other variables in these equations that we could go into, but the point is that even BU having 3 winners demonstrates a high percentage yield considering over 12 years they likely graduated 24 bass players.

Again, I am asserting that percentages are the more salient statistic. I'm certainly not begrudging Hurst or Bransby any credit. I know plenty of current students and alums, and they all have very solid playing credentials. I'm more disputing the concept that a teacher doesn't have to have successful playing credentials. I am certain that every once in a while, someone can ascend from the mire of non-conservatory schooling and take victory. If you look at that list though, the instances of someone from outside of Rice/Curtis/Juilliard/IU/BU/Peabody hegemony are extremely few. To reassert my point, you -could- learn your information from someone who hasn't played in the big leagues but you'll -probably- learn it from someone who has

 

[chicagodoubler]

Yes, IU is very audition oriented. Several people play mock auditions in every masterclass, and orchestral rep class is brutal. Even the orchestral placement auditions in the fall are brutal. Anyone suffering through that right now? The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

Conversely, there are many other ways to enjoy life without an orchestral job, and many winners drop off after a couple years... that life isn't for everyone. My former classmates are also teachers, successful theater/ jazz freelancers... there's even a sommelier!!! That guy has the life. Getting paid to drink wine beats sawing away in a section for 30 years, imho.

 

[¡bassballbill!]

"To reassert my point, you -could- learn your information from someone who hasn't played in the big leagues but you'll -probably- learn it from someone who has" Bingo.

"Even the orchestral placement auditions in the fall are brutal. Anyone suffering through that right now?" ....[Groan]