Double Bass Clarus SL + DPA 4099

[SirLinux]

Not getting the volume out of this combination in comparison to the piezo pickup on the upright. Using a phantom 48 source and XLR to 1/4 input to the Clarus SL but neither Hi or Low Z inputs output the volume of my electric or upright piezo pickup even with level and master at the max. Is it perhaps that the Clarus SL isn't designed to work with a condenser mic? I take the exact output into a Tone Hammer 350 and there is no issue with volume there. Some type of pre-amp required perhaps?

TIA

 

[Ric Vice]

The even with the 48v Power Supply, DPA 4099 won't give you the same kind of sound, that your piezo pickup will. It has different tone quality, than the piezo and won't give
you the same volume either. Their different sounds. Sorry this isn't much help. I used a DPA 4099B with the Realist for about a year, before I went to the Ehrlund EAP which
is also a different sound, somewhere in between the Realist and DPA. More present and immediate than the DPA less than the Realist, but better suited to my bass and playing style.
My take is that the DPA is great FOH with a pickup back to the amp. Very tricky to use with and amplifier as it's either not loud enough or hits it's feedback threshold when it's
positioned where you can hear it.

 

[SirLinux]

The even with the 48v Power Supply, DPA 4099 won't give you the same kind of sound, that your piezo pickup will. It has different tone quality, than the piezo and won't give
you the same volume either. Their different sounds. Sorry this isn't much help. I used a DPA 4099B with the Realist for about a year, before I went to the Ehrlund EAP which
is also a different sound, somewhere in between the Realist and DPA. More present and immediate than the DPA less than the Realist, but better suited to my bass and playing style.
My take is that the DPA is great FOH with a pickup back to the amp. Very tricky to use with and amplifier as it's either not loud enough or hits it's feedback threshold when it's
positioned where you can hear it.

Appreciate the reply.
I feel the problem is with the Clarus SL itself. I have used the same output into 2 other amps and no issues with volume from them so must be something with how the Clarus handles condenser mic input. I should have checked the specs before I purchased. Maybe only compatible with piezo/magnetic type pickups. I'll have to try with another condenser mic to compare. Thank you.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Mic voltage levels are very low compared to most if not all pickup levels. So it depends on the range of your gain control if a mic will give you enough level.
Typically amps with a 48 volts phantom source and XLR input are constructed to have enough gain. If you only have a TS input, they are built for pickups only, so the high gain for a mic is not needed and therefor not part of the amp design.

If you want to connect a mic to an amp with a TS input only you need a mic preamp. The kind of mic preamp depends on the kind of the mic. For a condenser you need a mic preamp with phantom power. For a ribbon mic you need a special kind of preamp with extra high gain and NOT delivering phantom power to the mic. Ideally with a controllable input impedance (unless it is an active one which has a preamp built in and needs phantom power).

Condenser mics deliver a high output level, more than typical dynamic moving coil mics and a lot more than ribbon mics. But not enough to get a comparable maximum output to a pickup.
BTW, many contact pickups/mics are electret condenser pickups, so their output level might need a special mic preamp too.

 

[BobKay]

Appreciate the reply.
I feel the problem is with the Clarus SL itself. I have used the same output into 2 other amps and no issues with volume from them so must be something with how the Clarus handles condenser mic input. I should have checked the specs before I purchased. Maybe only compatible with piezo/magnetic type pickups. I'll have to try with another condenser mic to compare. Thank you.

Might be the Clarus, but that's not my experience. I was able to connect a mic similar to a DPA directly to a Clarus head with no volume issues. Other than the expected feedback when the volume got too high.

Might want to call Rick at Acoustic Image and ask him. He answers the phone and is always helpful.

 

[SirLinux]

Mic voltage levels are very low compared to most if not all pickup levels. So it depends on the range of your gain control if a mic will give you enough level.
Typically amps with a 48 volts phantom source and XLR input are constructed to have enough gain. If you only have a TS input, they are built for pickups only, so the high gain for a mic is not needed and therefor not part of the amp design.

If you want to connect a mic to an amp with a TS input only you need a mic preamp. The kind of mic preamp depends on the kind of the mic. For a condenser you need a mic preamp with phantom power. For a ribbon mic you need a special kind of preamp with extra high gain and NOT delivering phantom power to the mic. Ideally with a controllable input impedance (unless it is an active one which has a preamp built in and needs phantom power).

Condenser mics deliver a high output level, more than typical dynamic moving coil mics and a lot more than ribbon mics. But not enough to get a comparable maximum output to a pickup.
BTW, many contact pickups/mics are electret condenser pickups, so their output level might need a special mic preamp too.

Might be the Clarus, but that's not my experience. I was able to connect a mic similar to a DPA directly to a Clarus head with no volume issues. Other than the expected feedback when the volume got too high.

Might want to call Rick at Acoustic Image and ask him. He answers the phone and is always helpful.

Came across this little ditty regarding the 4099 on Gollihur Music -

"If you'd like to use a specialized condenser microphone like The DPA 4099B with a "standard" bass amplifier, you can't just buy a cable and plug it in, for several reasons:

• The Microphone is "Active" and requires Phantom Power to operate - most amps don't provide this phantom power
• The Microphone puts out a "Mic-Level" signal, and most amps expect an "Instrument-Level" signal - you'll end up with a less-than-optimal signal
• The Microphone has an XLR (three-pin, balanced) output, and most amps have a ¼" input - an adapter cable is a less-than-ideal way to connect the mic to an unbalanced connection

To solve this problem, we can offer a bundled package with the ART Studio V3 Microphone Preamp, which provides the needed phantom power so you can integrate with your existing setup and get studio-quality microphone sound."

I suppose what I am experiencing is the "Mic-Level" signal rather than "Instrument-Level". Perhaps the Clarus SL expects the latter. A little disappointed with the Clarus if that is true as the other 2 amps didn't require a preamp signal from the 4099. Off to spending some more money to resolve!
Thanks all.

 

[neddyrow]

If you had the series 4 over the the SL, this wouldn't be a problem. The Series 4 has the mic input with 48v phantom power built in. I understand it's much more of a pricey unit but I love mine. Every instrument I've plugged into it sounds like it shoud (mando, fiddle, banjo, guitar, BG and of course, DB). I own one 2-channel and a focus single channel that I share with the band. My acoustic guitar player has a Ten2 that he uses. Sometimes the FOH will mic him up on the second channel and it sounds like a real guitar should. Worth the money.

Luckily for you, a phantom power box can be had for under $50 and you'll still get to plug your DPA into the Clarus and get a great tone. But, as a guy who owned a DPA for awhile, I sold it as it was more trouble than it was worth. Mics are for a player who is on big stages and plays outdoor events. My gigs are in bars and coffee shops as well as festival spots where the time to dial in the DPA was short as we had to be on the stage, set up and ready to go in under 15 minutes.

Personally, I'd sell the DPA and use the money for something else that could add more to your tone without all the stress of dealing with low output or feedback issues. But that's my $.02.

 

[Ric Vice]

Microphones are wonderful as long as you are familiar and comfortable with their sound on your bass and amplifier. Even with the incredible sounding Remic microphone I use for medium sized concerts, there are trade offs between a mic and my choice of pickup the Ehrlund EAP. For most smaller settings and venues it’s just easier and more comfortable to use the pickup and accept it’s tonal limitations on small stages where the band is scrunched together. Just my take, but for me microphones need a little more room to breathe.

 

[brianrost]

Is it perhaps that the Clarus SL isn't designed to work with a condenser mic?

Amp instrument inputs are usually 10 to 20 DB lower in sensitivity than mike inputs would be. The AI heads with both 1/4" for instruments and XLRs for mikes have the input levels properly balanced.

 

[Ric Vice]

Amp instrument inputs are usually 10 to 20 DB lower in sensitivity than mike inputs would be. The AI heads with both 1/4" for instruments and XLRs for mikes have the input levels properly balanced.

Very true, the newer AI heads have moved away from having combo inputs and 48v Phantom. Which seems to be the way we are headed with DB amp heads vs DB preamps. Just my observation. the Claris 4+ is one of the few holdouts with EA closing it's doors. Oddly enough their isn't a significant difference in price between the SL 2R and the Clarius 4+ considering the additional features it provides.