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Class D "digital" amps. Opinions on performance

I would just like to point out that class D, class I, and class TD are listed here as different things.

Which is exactly what I have been saying this entire time.

IMPO, Class D and Class I are based on EXACTLY the same principles, class I being Crown's propriatary tradmark naming. It is class D but carries with it Crown's own name which is not an amplifier class as defined by the governing body of IEEE. I mentioned it as a "class" because that is how it is being discussed and how it's been misunderstood. Class T and Class TD are also not real classes but are really class D as well. I listed them based on this discussion so as to explain how they work and what specific class D mechanism each one uses.

I think you have completely misunderstood the difference between defined (real) amplifier classes and trademarked names like Class I, Class T, Class TD etc. which bear no direct relation to class other than what their technology and topology dictates. Incidently, all of these trademarked classes are in fact class D amplifiers.
 
+1

I'd never even heard of class T or TD,....seems as if we've skipped some letters.:)

We've skipped a lot of letters... these are really not classes but trademarked names that use the word class. They are generally understood class D topologies by those of us who work with them and are involved with developing and protecting I.P.
 
IMPO, Class D and Class I are based on EXACTLY the same principles, class I being Crown's propriatary tradmark naming. It is class D but carries with it Crown's own name which is not an amplifier class as defined by the governing body of IEEE. I mentioned it as a "class" because that is how it is being discussed and how it's been misunderstood. Class T and Class TD are also not real classes but are really class D as well. I listed them based on this discussion so as to explain how they work and what specific class D mechanism each one uses.

I think you have completely misunderstood the difference between defined (real) amplifier classes and trademarked names like Class I, Class T, Class TD etc. which bear no direct relation to class other than what their technology and topology dictates. Incidently, all of these trademarked classes are in fact class D amplifiers.

If you want to use an incredibly broad definition of 'class D', which you probably do, for business reasons. Fine.

The difference between a class I amp and a class D amp is at least as significant as the difference between a class A amp and a class B amp. Are those 'basically the same thing' as well?
 
CLASS I: based off of the class D topology above, Crown switches the bridge in quadrature which increases the effective switching speed. This brings some added efficiency as switching losses are non-linear with respect to frequency. By slowing down each switch by 50%, switching losses in each switch may decrease by a factor of 4 or more. This yields a savings of 50% minimum even with more devices required. It’s was even more significant when device speeds were slower than they are today.

I echo the thanks to you for compiling this information for all of us. I don't want to nitpick, but I disagree that switching loss is non-linear with respect to PWM frequency. Each time the switch changes state, some losses occur in the device that depend on the on-state current and off-state voltage - as well as device characteristics such as turn on/turn off transition times. For a given load current, the same power is lost every time the switch changes state. So, the rate of switching of the device dictates the total switching loss. This is well-documented in literature and most device models (MOSFET as well as IGBT) represent switching losses as being directly proportional to switching frequency.

I qualify this viewpoint from my experience in a different industry - power electronics for motor control. These motor drives typically use PWM frequencies of about 20 kHz -- significantly lower than audio applications I know. Perhaps there is another phenomenon that arises at the higher PWM frequencies that I have not encountered in my motor control world. If so, please elaborate as I'm quite interested in this. There are a lot of technologies used in audio amps that could be used in motor drives, and vice versa I'm sure.

By the way, many years ago, I used some large DC motor drives to power loudspeakers just for fun. Worked quite well actually at least for limited frequency input.
 
If you want to know what the inventor has to say about "class-I", you can easily find out by looking up patent 5657219 at the "USPTO" ( US Patent and Trademark Office).

it is a variation in circuit, but not really as much a variation in concept as it might seem. The idea of overlapping pulses with the difference constituting the signal is fairly widely used in SMPS, but not in that topology. The Crown topology uses fewer devices, and allows a single-ended output. I agree it is still class-D, just done a bit differently.

The patent mentions some things as "required" in the prior art, but some I have rarely or never seen in actual units..... such as the series inductors for the switch devices (not the reconstruction filter). Nobody I know of uses those at the moment, they are no longer needed.

I also would not describe "other" amplifiers as "vanilla class-D"........ the differences are relatively small, the switching speed advantage is a possible 2:1 difference in losses, but if losses are a few percent now, the absolute reduction is also small.

As for THD differences, I don't know. THD with existing good class-D is quite good, and class-D inherently should be capable of better THD than linear analog amplifiers. THD often comes from changes in the linearity of devices with signal level, and the PWM system has fewer significant changes of that sort than a class-AB amplifier.

Most very good AB amps go to great lengths to keep variations in the operating conditions of outputs to a minimum, generally requiring large numbers of devices, complex tracking regulators, etc. And at the end of the day, the class-AB amp cannot avoid some form of "crossover artifact", however small it may be. Only the class-A amp avoids that.

In some ways, the AB amp improvement process is choosing the brand of lipstick to put on the pig...... but it's still a pig, cosmetic surgery notwithstanding.

My judgement is that there is more room for improvement in class-D, be it alternating, overlapping, etc in terms of how the PWM is accomplished.

If you want to mess around with class-I, the patent is 15 years old in August, so it will be expiring fairly soon.

As for switching loss, as one who has now made BOTH Class-D amps AND VFDs (motor drives) I (and the "Class-I" inventor himself) agree with the contention that losses are generally linear with frequency, at least for mosfets.

For IGBTs, which are at base nothing more than regular bipolar transistors (good ones) set up with a mosfet type input, the losses may get non-linear when you count the "tail current", a slow decay of current which is not present in a mosfet. At a certain switching speed, the IGBT may essentially never turn off.

I don't know that the overlapping "class-I" technique can allow a slow IGBT to work as well as a mosfet for PWM.
 
I echo the thanks to you for compiling this information for all of us. I don't want to nitpick, but I disagree that switching loss is non-linear with respect to PWM frequency. Each time the switch changes state, some losses occur in the device that depend on the on-state current and off-state voltage - as well as device characteristics such as turn on/turn off transition times. For a given load current, the same power is lost every time the switch changes state. So, the rate of switching of the device dictates the total switching loss. This is well-documented in literature and most device models (MOSFET as well as IGBT) represent switching losses as being directly proportional to switching frequency.

I qualify this viewpoint from my experience in a different industry - power electronics for motor control. These motor drives typically use PWM frequencies of about 20 kHz -- significantly lower than audio applications I know. Perhaps there is another phenomenon that arises at the higher PWM frequencies that I have not encountered in my motor control world. If so, please elaborate as I'm quite interested in this. There are a lot of technologies used in audio amps that could be used in motor drives, and vice versa I'm sure.

By the way, many years ago, I used some large DC motor drives to power loudspeakers just for fun. Worked quite well actually at least for limited frequency input.

Yes, what is significant is the PWM frequency which is typically ~500-700kHz.

There are 2 different mechanisms that I can think of of the top of my head (I'm a linear controls guy more than a swithing guy) on the Crown implimentation that are responsible for loss reduction...

There is the effective doubling of switching speed which reduces the time that the switch remains in the unsaturated (or cutoff) state and then there's the reduction of the high state voltage by 50% which also reduces the time that the switch slews. So there's a factor of 4 reduction here (give or take) and I thought there was an increase in the effective number of switches by a factor of 2 giving them a 1/2 loss savings.

I also recall something about the % of time the switch slews relative to the overall period of the PWM cycle which becomes more significant as speeds increase. I have heard of class D PWM clocking at >1MHz but can't say that I have seen any in practice. That's 1uSec per period so switching times need to be ~.01uSec which requires slew rates for a 100 volt rail of 10,000V/uSec which is blazing fast for both an on and off transition.

It's been a while since I looked at this technology, so I may be missing a key piece of information. Maybe Jerrold or Bob is more familiar with this and can help out?
 
If you want to use an incredibly broad definition of 'class D', which you probably do, for business reasons. Fine.

The difference between a class I amp and a class D amp is at least as significant as the difference between a class A amp and a class B amp. Are those 'basically the same thing' as well?

I've got a Crest CD kicking around, anybody want it? Same thing as an I-Tech, experts on Talkbass say so.

I have stuck to this for purely technical reasons as have the other engineers who have participated. It is you who have placed the accusations on the rest of us.

The difference between class A and class B is very clearly defined by the conduction angle of the output stage. Class A is 360 degrees and class B is 180 degrees. You can change some class A amps to class B and some class B amps to class A by altering the output stage bias (and thus conduction angle) but without further design and construction work is likely to result in a smoking mess of parts.

Class D encompasses many approaches like Crown's, Tripaths, Hypex's, IcePower's, PowerSoft's, International Rectifier's but they are all based on a PWM transform and operate using the same basic principles as defined by IEEE. Exactly the same could be said of a class AB amp using a Darlington output stage versus a CFB pair output stage, or one using an LTP versus another using an integrated differential amp input stage.

There are many ways to skin the same cat, and it's not at all helpful to be rude to those of us who are trying to help nor to those here who are trying to learn more about how this technology works.
 
The patent itself refers to a halving of losses.

The voltage is not really halved...... but the frequency is. the voltage is not because with a class-D it is operating in "continuous conduction", meaning the load has current in it substantially all the time during an entire half cycle. Therefore, during the time the switch is "off", the current is coming through the diode, and so the output voltage is "stuck to" the opposite rail unless it "runs out of current" (which is where it changes over to "discontinuous conduction mode").

The basic voltages are same as for any class-D of same power. So the switching frequency should be the only variable.

Our large PWMs ran with a basic frequency (depending on unit) of 300 to 450 kHz. Since they were "natural sampling" the maximum frequency could be substantially higher. Some of the IC units run as low as 75 to 100 kHz, possibly less in certain cases.
 
Isn't the voltage on each switch halved but there's 2x the number of switches? I recall something like this but maybe I am thinking of something else... possibly from the stepper motor or servo motor world?

In general, there's so much technology we are immersed in (not even surrounded by is an adequate description) every day that there are times that I wake up and wonder where I have seen something before but really can't remember if it was an engineering trade magazine, a data sheet whitepaper, a journal article or whatever. In the digital and computer worlds (where I do not live) this stuff flys by 10x as fast too!!! Too much, too fast for me these days!
 
There is a lot of great information and references on this thread.
I'm going to need to read it a few times.
Thanks to many for the answers, and to many for the right questions that drove the answers.

Although not given a class - I think "UCD" was pivotal to a lot of innovations.

I hope see a big surge in "I" tech after patents expire. This will be fun.
 
The basic unit is the same parts as a halfbridge...... two switch parts, and two diodes. The usual halfbridge can often use the inherent diode of the opposite switch, at least for lower power levels.

What they did was to split the two "quarter-bridges" apart, so they in essence added two diode packages. And they changed the way the modulator controls the two "quarter-bridges".

So there really are still about the same parts as would be there regardless.

BTW, as "313" probably knows, the motor drive world combines the "class-H" idea of switched power supply voltage levels, with the class-D idea of PWM, so that they now have multi-level PWM. It has several advantages, where the complexity isn't an issue, typically in large drives. Large these days gets pretty darn large..... where a 600 A motor drive was pretty big even relatively recently, in the last few years a lot of diesel-electric locomotives in power ranges of a megawatt and above have been converted to use AC motors and huge switching-type motor controls.....

Interesting how the same ideas get used in rather different places.....

So far, the biggest class-D amps I know of still have just a "few HP" of output power.... The prospect of megawatt bass amps is just way too "out there". Good thing it really isn't possible. Yet.
 
Do people want more power, or more stability into low impedance loads - 2 ohms, even 1 ohm?

What they WANT.......... (some of them, anyway, if they don't need a huge stage setup for looks)................

is a pocket-sized amp of about 1500W that sounds better than <insert amp name here>, and a single 10" the size of an attache case that will sound great, plus totally handle the power, loudness and Xmax issues, so they can quit hauling the double 810 setup, bag the trailer, and drive a "Smart" to the gig.

It ain't happening soon..... as far as I know.

Application of PWM concepts directly to speaker design has some possibilities.................. so far impractical, and possibly of no use ever, but..........
 
The basic unit is the same parts as a halfbridge...... two switch parts, and two diodes. The usual halfbridge can often use the inherent diode of the opposite switch, at least for lower power levels.

What they did was to split the two "quarter-bridges" apart, so they in essence added two diode packages. And they changed the way the modulator controls the two "quarter-bridges".

So there really are still about the same parts as would be there regardless.

As soon as you mentioned this I realized that I was overlapping the split up bridges with the whole grounded bridge concept and mixed up the benefits of both approaches into a single thing. Ugh, brain overload.
 
Talking about PWM controls, class D and non-linear control/switching, much of this technology is also used in PWM-PSW inverters, electric vehicle controls and LED lighting control.

It's a very big small world out there. ;)