Double Bass Community Orchestra Yay or Nay?

[Depechionista]

I had the opportunity to attend a week long orchestra "camp" recently. After spending a dedicated week of music study, practice, workshops, rehearsals, and performance, I've been thinking about dropping out of my community orchestra to spend more time building a stronger foundation. I'm concerned about losing momentum as an adult learner if I drop and potential injuries if I stay.

I'd like to gather perspectives outside of my own on the pros and cons of staying with an ensemble vs taking a pause to grow.

I can share the pros and cons separately if it's helpful.

 

[bass player 53]

I had the opportunity to attend a week long orchestra "camp" recently. After spending a dedicated week of music study, practice, workshops, rehearsals, and performance, I've been thinking about dropping out of my community orchestra to spend more time building a stronger foundation. I'm concerned about losing momentum as an adult learner if I drop and potential injuries if I stay.

I'd like to gather perspectives outside of my own on the pros and cons of staying with an ensemble vs taking a pause to grow.

I can share the pros and cons separately if it's helpful.

I think your post is too vague for anyone to provide a useful response.
How often does the orchestra rehearse?
Do they perform?
Are you studying the bass privately or in school?
What are your overall goals?
Do you make effective use of your practice time? Do you know how to practice correctly?
What is your work/family situation?

 

[AGCurry]

Your statement about "potential injuries if I stay" leads to questions and conjecture. Did participating in the orchestra camp lead to injury and/or pain? If so, do you know why, and does it have to do with needing "a stronger foundation?" Potential injuries are just that: Injuries that haven't happened and might well be avoided with care.

St. Louis is blessed to have several community orchestras. I've played in five of them but now in two: One because it needs me, as the only bassist, and the other because it forces me to work to improve. There are things I like and dislike about each.

The times I've left an orchestra, it's been for reasons like scheduling, difficulty of the "shlep," and loss of conductor. I don't always like the conductor's style, or the chosen pieces, or the other members, but they are not obligated to please me; I'm there to serve the ensemble.

For sure, there have been times when, after a discouraging rehearsal, I've considered leaving because I'm not good enough. When I vocalized this feeling with my section mates, they urged me to stay, in the most supportive way.

Too, I think your age is a factor in decision. If you have only a few years left, you may lean toward staying! But the single biggest "pro" I can give for staying is this: There is NO SUBSTITUTE for playing music with other people. You can work on "foundations" in your practice and apply them while working with others.

 

[Stuart.C]

I too have grappled with this question but always ultimately stayed with the orchestra.

The feeling creeps up when we take on pieces that are so far out of my ability it feels like an impossible task, and a waste of time spending a month on a passage that is over in seconds.
That the time would be better used on intonation and fundamentals.

But I have learned to not take it so seriously, I do what I can do, and reserve some time for fundamentals and solo rep.
Because at the end of the day you don't have to be good at your hobbies.

 

[Slevage]

Injuries?
If the music is on the difficult side, incorporate it into your lessons.

If it’s too easy, look at it as “time with instrument in hand.”

 

[Bruce Calin]

As principal in a community orchestra I occasionally find myself acting as coach and booster for section members with the sorts of issues you describe. There is almost always a solution to any playing issue. Scheduling can sometimes be a problem, including for me personally, but anything else is fixable somehow IMO.

 

[Depechionista]

I think your post is too vague for anyone to provide a useful response.
How often does the orchestra rehearse?
Do they perform?
Are you studying the bass privately or in school?
What are your overall goals?
Do you make effective use of your practice time? Do you know how to practice correctly?
What is your work/family situation?

That's fair. I notice a lot of folks don't read through long responses so I try to avoid being too detailed.

Direct answers:
How often does the orchestra rehearse?

• Every week for 2.5 - 3 hours

Do they perform?

• Yes, three times a year

Are you studying the bass privately or in school?

• Privately. I'm an adult learner who takes private lessons with 2 teachers: one for technique and orchestral playing. One for jazz and theory.

What are your overall goals?

• I'm not sure if this learning goals or broad musical goals so I'll answer the latter:

• Have more options for who I can play with
• Be able to say "yes" more to opportunities to play
• Be a good contributor
• "Catch up " to the group
• Be able to do more improvised or quick turnaround performing (shorter rehearsal timeline)
• My learning goals are more of a laundry list of different things that I could be better at (vibrato for instance)

Do you make effective use of your practice time? Do you know how to practice correctly?

• It depends how much time I have on the given day.
  • Weekdays (usually short days): Scales as warm up. Play through weekly bowing excercise once. Play through previously selected areas in the rep to practice. I highlight areas I think will be difficult and those which I can confirm are difficult after playing through it with the group.
  • Weekdays: any written or listening assignments/tasks.
  • Weekends (longer practice): Warm-up (usually long tones or harmonics across the strings), Scales & arpeggios focusing on 1-2 scales, Harmonics exercise Bowing exercises with metronome, Assigned pieces or rep for performance
  • During breaks: all of the above + more time on Jazz assignments
  • Mental practice when not with instrument, or during commute reading through pieces or practicing the fingering on my arm
• Post camp: I was given a few more things to incorporate, such as double stops exercises, feedback on metronome usage, and advice to do more solos and self-selected works

What is your work/family situation?

• Full time work and full time family.
• My husband and I trade which days we're ON with the kid so we both have days and times carved out for hobbies.

 

[Depechionista]

As principal in a community orchestra I occasionally find myself acting as coach and booster for section members with the sorts of issues you describe. There is almost always a solution to any playing issue. Scheduling can sometimes be a problem, including for me personally, but anything else is fixable somehow IMO.

That's amazing that your section has you there to take on that role. In my group, it's just me and one other person. I'm often on my own. Because we're all doing this afterwork, I don't have any hard feelings about not having a proper section in this instance. Although, I admit part of me wants to be better so I can play in a larger and (hopefully) more involved section (that has sectionals!).

 

[Depechionista]

I too have grappled with this question but always ultimately stayed with the orchestra.

The feeling creeps up when we take on pieces that are so far out of my ability it feels like an impossible task, and a waste of time spending a month on a passage that is over in seconds.
That the time would be better used on intonation and fundamentals.

But I have learned to not take it so seriously, I do what I can do, and reserve some time for fundamentals and solo rep.
Because at the end of the day you don't have to be good at your hobbies.

Oh, totally! I think the time is well spent either way. It's definitely on my pros list to have a space where I can talk about things that aren't related to work or parenting. I guess I don't think in terms of being good or bad. I think "did I like that thing I just did?" If not, diagnose and fix until answer is "yes." My spouse calls it "Type B fun." Basically the upfront work put into having a better experience outside of practice, or in his case, training.

 

[Jazzdogg]

I had the opportunity to attend a week long orchestra "camp" recently. After spending a dedicated week of music study, practice, workshops, rehearsals, and performance, I've been thinking about dropping out of my community orchestra to spend more time building a stronger foundation. I'm concerned about losing momentum as an adult learner if I drop and potential injuries if I stay.

I'd like to gather perspectives outside of my own on the pros and cons of staying with an ensemble vs taking a pause to grow.

I can share the pros and cons separately if it's helpful.

Why must you choose one or the other?

 

[Depechionista]

Your statement about "potential injuries if I stay" leads to questions and conjecture. Did participating in the orchestra camp lead to injury and/or pain? If so, do you know why, and does it have to do with needing "a stronger foundation?" Potential injuries are just that: Injuries that haven't happened and might well be avoided with care.

Good questions.

Foundation building, it's separate, yet related to injury. Separate as in I'm still building muscle memory of the notes on the finger board and can't play faster passages with a lot of shifting. Also, just more time to build coordination without the pressure of a performance dangling over my head. I'm hypermobile so I get injured frequently. The relationship of injury to foundational work is taking the time to let my supporting muscles do their jobs properly and without anything overcompensating one weaker muscles get exhausted.

St. Louis is blessed to have several community orchestras. I've played in five of them but now in two: One because it needs me, as the only bassist, and the other because it forces me to work to improve. There are things I like and dislike about each.

The times I've left an orchestra, it's been for reasons like scheduling, difficulty of the "shlep," and loss of conductor. I don't always like the conductor's style, or the chosen pieces, or the other members, but they are not obligated to please me; I'm there to serve the ensemble.

For sure, there have been times when, after a discouraging rehearsal, I've considered leaving because I'm not good enough. When I vocalized this feeling with my section mates, they urged me to stay, in the most supportive way.

I agree. I would like more options as to who I can play with and which opportunities I can take advantage of.

Too, I think your age is a factor in decision. If you have only a few years left, you may lean toward staying! But the single biggest "pro" I can give for staying is this: There is NO SUBSTITUTE for playing music with other people. You can work on "foundations" in your practice and apply them while working with others.

I think I can get 30+ years of playing if I take care of myself. It's part of why I'm thinking about pulling back on orchestra to improve the odds of doing this longer. Stepping away from this won't mean I'm not playing with others. Just with less frequency and not as strenuously.

 

[Depechionista]

Why must you choose one or the other?

Time.

 

[Wasnex]

The answer should be based on your personal needs and expectations. If you enjoy it and benefit from the experience, stay. If not, leave.

We (TB) have a saying that goes something like this. In order to stay with a group it needs to be justified by the music, the hang, or the cash. This is sort of a net positive assessment goal. Maybe the music and hang suck but the pay is really good...and you need the cash. Or maybe the pay and hang are marginal, but you really enjoy the playing experience.

Consider context as well: I.E. the availability of more-desirable opportunities, should be factored into you decision.

Your values and needs change over time. Just because something made sense in the past does not mean it makes sense now. Years ago I did some time with community orchestras and pit orchestras. At that point in my development (teen and young adult), the math came out as net good. After turning full-time pro as a military musician, the computations where different. I played in a community orchestra for awhile and it drove me nuts. I gave them notice and they made me an offer: Do the dress rehearsal and concert and we will pay you an honorarium. I tried this for one or two concert series, but felt it was still a net negative; so I stopped. The tried to further sweeten the pot, and I declined there offer.

I had a long and successful career as a military bandsmen...and I have absolutely no regrets from quitting that community orchestra.

 

[bass player 53]

Thanks for providing such a detailed response.
I don’t have much more to contribute that the others haven’t said, though I think you can look further into injury prevention/treatment.
In the ‘classical’ realm of piano study,
The Alexander Technique is a well regarded and highly accepted/utilized method for injury prevention. There are a few books you can find with a Google/Amazon search for books/videos for similar techniques for string players. I spent 12 years as an employee at a university with a prominent music school, playing simultaneously in the student and professional orchestra. I saw many cases of tendinitis, wrist, hand, and finger injuries that were the result of the pressure to perform/graduate. There is help at your disposal. I was in a very similar situation to you, and had to juggle a lot and learn to say ‘no, sorry’ a lot as well.

 

[Depechionista]

Thanks for providing such a detailed response.
I don’t have much more to contribute that the others haven’t said, though I think you can look further into injury prevention/treatment.
In the ‘classical’ realm of piano study,
The Alexander Technique is a well regarded and highly accepted/utilized method for injury prevention. There are a few books you can find with a Google/Amazon search for books/videos for similar techniques for string players. I spent 12 years as an employee at a university with a prominent music school, playing simultaneously in the student and professional orchestra. I saw many cases of tendinitis, wrist, hand, and finger injuries that were the result of the pressure to perform/graduate. There is help at your disposal. I was in a very similar situation to you, and had to juggle a lot and learn to say ‘no, sorry’ a lot as well.

Thanks. That's a good reminder about Alexander technique! I had it on my to do list and totally forgot about following up on that.

 

[aprod]

Being part of an ensemble is exactly how you grow as a musician.

 

[LouisF]

Lot of good info here, but I think you hit the nail on the head when you said (above) "and not as strenuously." There is no need EVER to play the bass strenuously. I'm 77 and principal of a ten-member community orchestra section. We have a range of levels (including a couple of people who play MUCH better than I do but don't want the responsibilities). And we are a remarkably ego free bunch (we rotate seating), and we play fairly challenging works (Beethoven 9, Shostakovitch 5, Dvorak 9 etc).

I've had 5 vertebrae in my neck replaced with pins 10 years ago (and have both arthritis and tendonitis in both hands), so I gave up "strenuous" ages ago for re-learning how to play the bass EFFICIENTLY: how I sit, position of the bass, shoulders, elbows; my bow hand, left hand -- if anything gets "strenuous" it means I've fallen back into bad habits.

And I get my colleagues in the section to look at things like: are the squeezing/pinching their bow hold, or locking their wrists; do their shoulders go up and get tight; do they stop "breathing" when they play etc (Alexander technique is great for this; see attached). I play on gut strings and try and get everyone to use low tension strings and keep the height down. If I (or some of the others) can't make a presto run of 16ths, playing every other not in a community orchestra isn't going to kill anyone for a couple of bars. It's not that I'm telling them what to do, it's that I don't want to see them hurt themselves (or in a couple of cases, continue to hurt themselves).

Michael Klinghoffer has a series and book called "Mr. Karr teach me to drive the double bass" in which he says (more or less) that playing the bass is either easy or impossible. It took me 60+ years to understand what he meant. Stay in the orchestra, be chill (as the kids say) and have fun!

 

[Depechionista]

Lot of good info here, but I think you hit the nail on the head when you said (above) "and not as strenuously." There is no need EVER to play the bass strenuously. I'm 77 and principal of a ten-member community orchestra section. We have a range of levels (including a couple of people who play MUCH better than I do but don't want the responsibilities). And we are a remarkably ego free bunch (we rotate seating), and we play fairly challenging works (Beethoven 9, Shostakovitch 5, Dvorak 9 etc).

I've had 5 vertebrae in my neck replaced with pins 10 years ago (and have both arthritis and tendonitis in both hands), so I gave up "strenuous" ages ago for re-learning how to play the bass EFFICIENTLY: how I sit, position of the bass, shoulders, elbows; my bow hand, left hand -- if anything gets "strenuous" it means I've fallen back into bad habits.

And I get my colleagues in the section to look at things like: are the squeezing/pinching their bow hold, or locking their wrists; do their shoulders go up and get tight; do they stop "breathing" when they play etc (Alexander technique is great for this; see attached). I play on gut strings and try and get everyone to use low tension strings and keep the height down. If I (or some of the others) can't make a presto run of 16ths, playing every other not in a community orchestra isn't going to kill anyone for a couple of bars. It's not that I'm telling them what to do, it's that I don't want to see them hurt themselves (or in a couple of cases, continue to hurt themselves).

Michael Klinghoffer has a series and book called "Mr. Karr teach me to drive the double bass" in which he says (more or less) that playing the bass is either easy or impossible. It took me 60+ years to understand what he meant. Stay in the orchestra, be chill (as the kids say) and have fun!

I didn't mean strenuously literally. I was implying it takes up a lot of my time and attention compared to other things. Communication via forum is crummy.

Beautiful and appreciated reply, however.

 

[LouisF]

Ah well, then! Good!!

 

[james condino]

Dropping a gig to train for one you don't yet have is a bold move.

Is this one of those pay to play scenarios?